Us again :(

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

Where to begin?

Ethan is 26 months. He is most likely teething his two year molars but no actual sign of them yet. Our disaster of a routine is:

Wake: 5:45-6am
Nap: 12:30-1:30 (nap can last from 45 minutes to 1 hour 15 minutes, he wakes on his own)
In bed: 7:15, actually asleep.... Between 8 and 8:30 if we are lucky

For the past three nights he has woken at least 6 times in the night. When he wakes from his nap he is a grouchy mess and I would say needs to go back to sleep but nothing I do will help him go back to sleep. At bedtime he doesn't appear tired in the least and is messing around in and out of his bed and all over the place wanting this, that and the other thing.

When I look at all of this, it screams OT to me but there doesn't appear to be anything I can actually do about it.  He will not sleep. Early nap, early bedtime, nothing does anything. So maybe it is something else.

So. This in and out of the bed thing. At first we were sitting in his room. Then we weaned that back to sitting outside his room which kept him in bed until the last few nights. Now he doesn't stay in his bed if I am sitting outside his room. He is getting up and throwing things off his bed and then "needing" to get down and get them again. Unless I tie him to the bed, he will not stay there. So what do I do? Leave him and let him mess around in his room until he falls asleep? Which, by the way, I have tried before and just ended up with a really OT toddler in tears at his door at 9:30 pm. He is usually completely happy in his room. Occasionally he will come and whine at his door but then if you go to his room he slams the door in your face and runs laughing onto his bed saying "that hilarious" So this all makes me think UT. But how can a kid who sleeps this little and wakes in the night this much be UT?

I should add that he spends all morning yawning and after waking from his nap in the afternoon, he is a mess until 6pm when he suddenly becomes Mr. I'm so funny.

Before I thought maybe he was OS before bedtime but now I am almost thinking he needs to burn off MORE energy before bedtime.

Pain meds change nothing. He seemed to have SA before which was why we were sitting in his room. He would have a meltdown if we left. Now he just thinks everything is hilarious and appears to be playing a huge game which I dont know how to handle. Also, if we leave him unsupervised in his room too long, he takes off his clothes, takes the vent of the heat register and all sort of other goodies which have included poop being smeared all over the place. In other words, he's a real gem

We don't know what to do with him anymore! I don't know if he is UT or OT but I really cannot fathom how he cannot possibly be OT with as little sleep as he gets.

Sorry this has gotten long and a bit all over the place.

Any ideas would be great!

[sianie]

Hi there!

Sorry things are tough! It totally smacks of teeth + OT to me!

2nd yr molars are a PITA, especially as they take so long to come through...

How much earlier have you tried for a nap? I wonder if you've missed his sleep window based on the BT resistance & NW's which will mean he's still tired in the AM. I would maybe try for a nap at around midday (& make sure you do a slightly longer WD if necessary).

Some of his behaviour sounds like he's got his second wind (my DD does this when she's OT). Also teething can cause SA to flare up too. Does he have a Gro-clock or something similar to help him to understand BT/WU etc?

I found meeds didn't make a big difference to DD when she was getting her 2nd yr molars, although I did find that ibuprofen based meds worked better than paracetamol ones.

Hope this has a helped a bit?

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

I think it sounds OT/ teeth too. But....

Last night I was completely Done with telling him to go back into his bed so I just left him and he played around until about 8:55 and then he started having a meltdown because he wanted to vent back on the heat register. So I went into his room and put the vent back and put him into bed and his eyes were half closed. He fell asleep right away so asleep at 9pm. Then he only woke once in the night and didn't wake up until 7am this morning so a 10 hour night which is a heck of a lot better then what we have been getting. So I don't really know what the heck is going on.

He was telling me when he was tired and wanted a nap for a bit there but now that has stopped and if I try and give him a nap earlier then noon, he fights me until he is way OT and it's 1:30. Then he sleeps for 35 minutes.

I haven't done the gro clock thing with him at all just because he still wouldn't stay in his bed. He would just come and whine/cry at the door to tell me it isn't on yet. However, if this continues much longer, I might just look into it again.

I am tempted to just keep letting him play in his room until he melts down simply because I cannot be sitting outside his room fighting with him for hours when this baby comes. I don't want him to get used to it. I know this is just going to make him even more OT though so I dont know. At least in the ten hours of sleep last night he actually slept. His NWing lasted for about 3 minutes. In the past few nights where he has gotten 9.5 hours of sleep time, he had so many NWings I dont even know how much actual sleep he got.

[Tweakster]

Jenn I think if he's not crying for you then you leave him.  I know you've done just about everything to fix his sleep and NW but really at some point it's near impossible to do anything.  What happens if you keep the lights off and sit in there with him...will he get into bed?  You might have to do some GW to get him relaxed, some kids need that reassurance at bed time.  We're going through it right now too.

If he's out of his crib I wouldn't bother with a Gro-clock unless you plan to bolt it to the wall.  F now knows that we can make the sun come on so it's lost most meaning.  He always tries to put the sun on by pressing the button.  We are going for the actual clock next...

Have you tried any no nap days at all?

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

Hi Wendy- yes I have been reading about your struggles lately

We were sitting in his room but we have been doing that for at least a month now and while he would settle down to sleep, it would take at least an hour. So we moved out into the hallway with the hopes that we could do a bit of GW with him and get a bit farther away before the baby comes. Simply because my DH has to work late some nights and it will be me doing bedtime alone with him and an infant. That was working wonderfully for a bit but it feels like it has turned into a game one. Instead of it feeling like he is genuinely scared or needing some reassurance, it really feels like haha Mom, I can make you do want I want. So I don't really feel like sitting in his room while get us anywhere???

I haven't tried any no nap days. I really do not think he is ready for that but I may well just be telling myself that. Today for instance, he fell asleep for his nap at 12:45 and woke up at 1:15 but he is crying and fussy in such a way that definitely makes you think he needs more sleep. Then I laid him back in bed and sat there for a few minutes and sure enough, he's asleep again. This is the longest nap we have had in a week. So that makes me think since he actually had a decent night, he might be able to catch up on some sleep. I really don't know???

This is all my mind spewing things. Maybe we should cut his nap back. I just am having s really hard time trying to figure out how he can possibly not be OT.

At nap, I just left him and he played and called to me but never in a way of actually needing me. But then he takes his clothes off and wants them back on. So I put them back on and then sure enough a few minutes later, off come the clothes. So this is where it really feels like a game??? So I told him I would put his clothes on one more time and if he took them off he could sleep without them. But then he moves onto something else and away we go. But the whole time this is happening he is rubbing his eyes, yawning and holding onto his ear which is what he does when tired. He will also throw everything over the baby gate and then "need" it back. When he needs it back, then he starts desperately crying because he threw stuff like his Teddy and blankets. I feel like if I keep getting it, I am playing into his game but if I dont, then hes in hysterics because he needs his blankets and I have to go in and calm him down anyways. This is where CIO becomes really appealing. Gah, I just couldn't do it though.

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

So he ended up napping for 2hrs 15 min which is the longest nap for a long time. He was also the happiest I have seen him in a long time and I had forgotten how nice a night with no temper tantrums is! We put him in bed at 7:30 and he is happily playing away right now. I haven't gone into him and he hasn't called. I can just hear him chatting away. It is 8:45 right now so I am thinking we put him to bed quite early given his long nap but he is happy so I am happy. We shall see what else happens as time goes onto tonight.

I was talking to my Mom and she was saying that she used to just have a bedtime and that was bedtime regardless of if you are tired or not. You stayed in your room at that point and went to sleep when you were ready. So I guess that's a bit like what we are trying? As long as he isn't demanding me or asking for stuff, does it really matter that he isn't going to sleep? I don't know! I think I really stress about sleep amounts. That's my one area that I think about constantly and am always stressing about. Maybe he picks up on it. I am going to try and be a bit less worried about actual times and play off his behavior instead. Does that make any sense or am I off my rocker?


***So at 9:05 he came to the door and called out for me. I went and put him into bed and said goodnight and he went to sleep! I am celebrating this because it has been months since we haven't had to AP him to sleep. It is way later then I feel like he should be falling asleep but I have simply run out of alternatives.

[sianie]

Glad you had a better night!

I did a set BT with DD too when she started transitioning to 1 nap and she would take as long as she needed to go to sleep.

[Tweakster]

Jenn I agree it's great to be less stressed about sleep - if you can.  But most often the people who are less stressed about sleep totals don't have kids who are badly affected by them if they don't get enough...

So if your kid is happy regardless then sure, it's easy to just go along with wherever the wind takes you.  But if your kid is behaviourally-challenged during the day, melting down, unable to cope well with input and struggling to compose himself then I think it's near impossible to simply ignore the sleep component.

I get what your mom is saying but those were also the days of letting kids CIO and spanking so sometimes we can't just live with the past ideals.

I'm not surprised that he took a long time to go to sleep given that long nap.  It's likely your nap at this point but probably like F he's not ready for a cut every day yet, just ahead of himself.  We've tried a set bedtime too to help anchor our day but have quickly found it's impossible to put an UT kid to bed, and boy does he let you know it.  So it looks like it's working for Ethan at the moment, he's happy playing in his room and that's great, hopefully he'll keep it up.  But we went from happily taking at least half hour or more to drop off to bedtime resistance to complete and utter chaos at bedtime.  It can deteriorate quickly in some kids.

What are his sleep totals at the moment?  How many NW are you getting and do you have to attend to him?  What's the shortest nap day you have tried?

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

Jenn I agree it's great to be less stressed about sleep - if you can.  But most often the people who are less stressed about sleep totals don't have kids who are badly affected by them if they don't get enough...

I hear you on this! I completely remember people telling me when he was a wee baby to stop stressing and just go with it and when I would, he would be great for three days and then I would spend the next two months pulling him back from OT land. I think what I am trying to go for is more of a you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink type of thing. It's bedtime and if you aren't ready to fall asleep, go ahead and play quietly until you are ready. Now very, very obviously this will only work for certain types of children. I just haven't figured out if it will work for Ethan yet...

So it looks like it's working for Ethan at the moment, he's happy playing in his room and that's great, hopefully he'll keep it up.  But we went from happily taking at least half hour or more to drop off to bedtime resistance to complete and utter chaos at bedtime.  It can deteriorate quickly in some kids.

This is what I am scared of.

Sleep totals...well....for about a week we had 9.5 hour nights with 5-6 NWings so I would say 8 hours of sleep and then 45min-1hr naps so lets say 9 hours sleep total. I have never dealt with so many behavior problems with him before. The night before last, he had a ten hour night with one really short waking where I just went ti his door and he climbed back into bed and went to sleep, with a 2hr15min nap and he was the happiest I have seen him in what feels like a long time.  So just over 12 hours total there.

Last night he went to sleep at 9:05, didn't have any wakings and is still sleeping (it is only 5:45am here). Then last time he actually STTN, I cannot remember.

Then shortest nap I have tried, well he tried on his own, was 35 minutes. It was horrible.


I do know how this cycle goes for us though. We will have three great days and then he will become UT and everything will fall apart. So I do need a plan and I don't think this new way of putting him to bed will solve all our problems. I just need a break from fighting with him. We moved him into a BBB in February and he was fine in it for a month so since March we got into the habit of APing him to sleep without really realizing it. He showed me that he can actually go to sleep independently still, he just wont do it at the time we want him to.


****he woke at 7:10 so another 10 hour night

[babybarr]

What's the earliest you have tried for a nap?  I wonder if you need to go super early like 11.15am?  Before he gets his second wind?  Also if not then perhaps try the super early bedtime?  So napping 45mins at 1pm bed for 6.30pm  He def sound OT and cos he's a short napper I think these are you two options to help get him out of OT. 

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

Thanks Laura, just curious, do you think if he continues this nighttime stuff he has going on right now, that he will catch up?

Last night he was asleep at 8:50, we had him in his room at 7:30. He woke up once at 4:45am and was awake for about 20 minutes. The length of this NWing was due to DH getting up for work so DS was having a hard time going back to sleep because he wanted to know what Daddy was doing He is still asleep now at 7:30am. He napped for 1 hr45 minutes yesterday and he woke up on his own.

So I guess my question is, would you still change his nap around, Laura? I would think with the amount of sleep he is getting right now, he *should* catch up on OT?

Thanks for your help girls!

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

Does it seem cruel to do bedtime the way that we are trying? It bothers me that he is in his room for so long before he goes to sleep but he is happy as can be playing around. Since I cannot get him to settle down before bedtime and when we sit with him, he plays all his games, it's like he is using this 1-1.5 hour period to wind down? Because if I don't put him into bed until 8:30, he takes until 10 to fall asleep anyways. Its like he needs that time. It just feels sort of mean But he doesn't appear to be bothered by it in the least!

[Tweakster]

Jenn it's not cruel but it's tough because when they aren't tired they just won't sleep.  Imagine when you are not tired and have to lie in bed tossing and turning.  Sure you are tired (one can always sleep) but your melatonin is not working appropriately because your body clock is all mucked up (much like what shift workers go through).  I think bedtime still has to be bedtime as is dangerous to get out of that habit but that you may need to tweak the nap to get him to a place where he's tired enough to drop off after a long day.

I wouldn't let him sleep more than 1.5 hrs at this point, you can try 45 mins but we're not having much luck just yet :-(.  Since he's waking early I'd aim for a 12:30 nap, if he takes until 1 so be it.  As long as he's up by 2 p.m. you should be in a good place to get him asleep by 8.  I'd also start your bedtime at 7, we are having the same issues and so we have to keep starting earlier to make it to our desired bedtime.

He sounds so much like F just now!  Trying to badly self-regulate and just not going with the program!

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

Ugh, it sucks, hey?

[babybarr]

It sounds like he may have caught up a bit yes I think I would still try the early nap (out of curiousity) as at least then he'd have a longer A till bedtime?