2-1 transition - short am/long pm naps with chronic EWer

[Kay Dee]

Hi Claire, I think maybe the catnap was a little too late in the day and possibly too much day sleep overall too. When we were doing long AM and short PM I did the AM nap fixed at 10am and kept the PM nap to 30mins (but the timing varied a bit as it was AP'ed). So something like:

Nap: 10-11.30
Nap: 2.30 - 3pm
Bed: 7pm

DD always needed to be awake by 3pm, 3.30 at the latest or we'd get EMW. But she was easy to AP so usually slept in the buggy for her PM nap when we were out and about. I don't think I ever tried it in the cot.

I think giving him a 2hr AM nap could work well but since he's difficult to AP I would worry he'd refuse the catnap 

TBH, the long AM/short PM didn't work for us for long so we switched. But then the short AM/long PM stopped working too so we just jumped to one nap at that stage. There was a bit of a leap from 4hr A time to 5hr A time. I couldn't get anything in between to work!

x

[sianie]

TBH, the long AM/short PM didn't work for us for long so we switched. But then the short AM/long PM stopped working too so we just jumped to one nap at that stage

This is part of the issue with 2:1, whether you do long AM/short PM or vice versa there's no real 'fix' for this until you can get onto 1 nap.

[Shiv52]

Thats what I think too.  I actually think i'd stick to what you are doing as you are getting much better nights than you were with short am/long pm.  I think because your A time is more evenly spread and he is getting a good chance to catch up when you push the first A time rather than a quick CN and having to do a short 2.5 A time after the short am nap which you were doing before.  I think because he is having his long nap first he is more tired come bedtime and therefore sleeping better for you at night. 

Just how it seems to me though.  You know best xx   

[clairebear79]

KDee - thanks for that.  Oh if only DS would go down 3hrs after a 1.5hr nap......not a chance!!!!  He's at more like 3.5-4hrs A after that long a nap I think. 

DD always needed to be awake by 3pm, 3.30 at the latest or we'd get EMW.

We seem to be ok with a PM nap that's later in the day, provided it is VERY short say 10-15mins.  Otherwise I agree the last couple of times we've done it, we've had EW.

I think giving him a 2hr AM nap could work well but since he's difficult to AP I would worry he'd refuse the catnap 

This is exactly the trouble we are having.  Today went:

Wake: 5.30
Nap:   10.15 - 12.15     A = 4h 45   S = 2h   (he woke himself)
BT:     6.30                 A = 6h 15

Tried to AP a C/N in the stroller - I was out walking from 3.30pm - 5pm    He had the glazed look & yawned twice at 4pm but just didn't sleep.  Got all fussy & stayed awake instead.   So did tea & then BT at 6.30 - not really EBT as such (still a 13hr day) but not the usual 7pm.

Shiv - DH & I both agree we are getting better nights overall with the long am nap, so we are going to with it instead of switching back, HOWEVER we need to do something about this PM nap refusal situation.  His nap is getting too late in the morning to easily fit in a CN without it being too late in the day (after 4pm).  I know there is the option to cap the AM nap at 1.5hrs, I am a little reluctant now though, as last week we had PM nap refusal after a 1.5hr AM nap, also if he does take a CN its usually less than 30mins, so he'd actually be having even less day sleep than he would if he just had 1 nap!

This is part of the issue with 2:1, whether you do long AM/short PM or vice versa there's no real 'fix' for this until you can get onto 1 nap.

Siigh!!!

Ladies am I best to stick at 4.75hrs A time for a week or so, allow him to sleep as long as he needs & try & AP a teeny 10min CN in the car every day?  Or cap the nap at 1.5hrs & hope for a longer PM nap?  Or is our best course of action to push him on to 5hrs A time as quickly as we can   I think he can just about do the 5hr A in the AM, but b/c of our EW his day is just too long for him to make it to 7pm BT without OT if he refuses the CN.

[Shiv52]

Ladies am I best to stick at 4.75hrs A time for a week or so, allow him to sleep as long as he needs & try & AP a teeny 10min CN in the car every day? 

This is what I would do hun.  I would just go with APing the CN as I think trying to aim for it in the cot will end up with more refusal and early bedtimes which will, I think, lead to those EWs again.  Well not so much EWs but 10.5/11 hour night sleep but after a 6.30 bedtime its still a much earlier start to the day than you really want. 

Hopefully once he is consistently at 4.75 for maybe 2 weeks you could push to 5 hour A time first thing and that should be enough to start one nap days if he keeps that 2 hour nap. 

[clairebear79]

Thanks for that.  I've given up trying to do the CN in the cot - it just doesn't work!!!  I don't really like having to AP it though - honestly I feel like I spent my whole afternoon today watching for sleep cues & trying to get him to sleep.  Its like when he was 3-6 months old all over again!!! 

Hopefully once he is consistently at 4.75 for maybe 2 weeks you could push to 5 hour A time first thing and that should be enough to start one nap days if he keeps that 2 hour nap

That's a big 'IF'.  I do hope so though!!!

[Shiv52]

WOuld it help to set your CN a set time after your nap to take the guessing out of it? 

Do you find his tired signs reliable?  M's were rubbish at 11 months and R who is 10 months now gives really unreliable tired signs.  So I tend to be more set naps to keep it easier for me!

[clairebear79]

His tired signs are changing atm.  He never rubs his eyes & rarely yawns like he did when he was little.  He's started getting hyper (which I believe is a sign of tiredness in toddlers) & loses coordination & lays his head down.  They seem to be quite obvious signs, but he still fights his PM nap so maybe I am getting it wrong!

I'd happily do set naps yes!!!  That's what I liked with the short am/long pm - the naps were set so it takes the guessing game away.  I think the difficulty so far has been knowing when to do them, b/c his WU's are varying, his A times & nap are varying, so the timing/duration of the CN varies too.  I can't figure out the best combination of A times for him.  Would you suggest setting both naps?

Can you help me with this then.....If we are doing a 4.75hr A time & assuming he wakes at 6am the day would be:
Wake: 6am
Nap:  10.45 - 12.45   (should I be capping this at 1.5hrs instead of 2?)
CN:                     (when - so it is not too late???)
BT:    7pm                (I REALLY don't want  to have BT any later than this if I can help it - I think the day is too long otherwise)

If he does a 1.5hr nap, he can go somewhere from 3.5-4hrs A after it.  After a 2hr nap, he could do an A time of around 4-4.5hrs.  But I guess the exact duration depends also on the length of his AM A time.  The shorter that is, the longer he will handle for his 2nd A time & vice versa.

[clairebear79]

We got a 6am WU today so 11.5hrs sleep.  Which is great.  However, he is very tired again this morning though, probably due to the huge 6hr+ A time he did yesterday.  So bang goes the sticking to the 4.75hr A time - he was asleep at 10.10am (4h 10).

So I was thinking he generally has his AM nap around 10am ish regardless of WU so I am going to try & do a set nap of 10am & cap at 1.5hrs, to try & ensure we get that PM nap, AND give some consistency to the day.  I suspect he may not sleep for his PM nap until 4hr A time which leaves us with a quandry over how long to let him sleep, since if he does 45mins the nap will be 3.30-4.15.  With a 7pm BT this is probably not enough A time after the nap & will result in EW.  So I was thinking of maybe doing 30mins 3.30-4pm & then a 6.30pm BT, in hopes of an 11.5hr night.  So:

Wake: 6
Nap: 10-11.30
Nap: 3.30-4.00
BT: 6.30

What do you think?

[sianie]

So I was thinking he generally has his AM nap around 10am ish regardless of WU so I am going to try & do a set nap of 10am & cap at 1.5hrs, to try & ensure we get that PM nap, AND give some consistency to the day.

Yep that makes sense to me & pretty much what I was doing with my LO's at around this age.

[Shiv52]

I think the nap times sound great. I think bedtime would need to be nearer 7pm though. At 11 months 2.5 hours after a 30 minute nap isn't a lot at all. Or do you think he'll be tired enough?

[clairebear79]

I tried the above today.  So far it's gone:

Wake:   6am
Nap:   10.10 - 11.40 A = 4h 10 S = 1.5hrs (we woke him from nap)
C/N:    3.55 -   4.25  A = 4h 15 S = 30min (PD for PM nap at 3.30 aiming for 3.40 asleep & it took ages for him to settle)

Not sure why he struggled to settle for the PM catnap.  He was yawning in the car at 2.20 but never slept.  I find it hard to believe he needed another nap only 2h 45 after waking from his AM nap, so we let him play for a while longer at home.  But maybe he is/was OT & I PD too late??? 

When I was doing short AM nap of 30mins I followed that up with a 2.5hr A time & that was fine for DS.  I also think at the end of the day after he has done 2x 4h+ A times then it should be ok.  So plan to do BT at 7pm & hope for the best.

I guess tomorrow will tell us if it is OK or not!!  Eek!!

Ladies, if by any luck he wakes later than 6am tomorrow I will still PD at 10am right?  So what do I do if he's not tired enough to sleep???

[Shiv52]

How did you get on today?   

Hope it went ok x

[clairebear79]

Hiya

Yesterday went:
Wake: 6am   (but woke at 4.45 by music box going off & took 15mins to resettle)
Nap: 10.00 - 11.15  (we had to wake him to go to christening)
CN:  3.20 - 3.40     (tried CN in stroller at party but no joy so he slept in car on way home.  woke himself - clearly an OT nap)
BT:  6.40               (PD at 6.20 - didnt dare do late due to how little sleep he'd had)

Today:
Wake: 5.30am  (10h 50 - I guess due to OT)
Nap:  10.30 -  (PD for 10am nap but he freaked out - I think he was already waay OT by then)

It seems we are in a bit of an OT mess right now, due to yesterday's outing or all these long A times he is doing.  I kept him up til 10am but I don't think it was perhaps the right thing to do.  He was rubbing his eyes before 8am.  I PD at 10 & he went nuts, I had to PU & calm him down & do his WD again - he was rubbing his eyes so I know he was tired for sure, when I PD again he got really upset & took until 10.35 for him to settle.

Ladies I don't feel like we can cap the AM nap at 1.5hrs today (esp as he has done 5h A time before it).  So I will just have to hope for a very short CN in the car this PM.  In fact we are struggling with capping the nap altogether as if he takes a 45min nap in the PM its too close to BT & if he takes less than that its not enough day sleep & he is OT.  I really don't know what we should be doing to fix this.

Oh & he's teething again - top molar is cutting.

ETA - he just woke from his nap at 1hr (after 5hrs A) & is now crying.  This boy is definitely super OT.  I really don't know what to do with him.

[sianie]

Oh & he's teething again - top molar is cutting.

Molars starting to come through won't be helping his sleep I'm afraid, they are some of the worst teeth for LO's to teethe. Also, you generally find that A-times get a little when LO's are teething as they get more tired so just bear this in mind.