2-1 transition - short am/long pm naps with chronic EWer

[clairebear79]

Do you know he's actually handling this tooth coming through better than when he got his top teeth.  He cut 6 (4 top, 2 bottom) in the space of 2wks when he was 8 months old & he was utterly beside himself in pain then.  So far, although he seems a little uncomfortable at times during the day, it doesn't seem to be too bad.

Did you have any thoughts about the long night we got after his PM nap refusal yesterday???  I can't help but wonder if the only way we'll get the longer nights is on 1 nap.  I truly don't want to push him to do it before he is ready as I know this will just cause OT, however he will be 11months tomorrow, he is fast approaching the age where LO's do start going to 1 nap and we have EW that is just not going away.  He has handled really long days for the last 3 weeks amazingly well & I have this little niggle inside me that says if he can manage to do 4.5-4.75hrs A time on a 10-10.5hr night, then if he was sleeping 11.5hrs he might just handle a 5hr A time (& therefore a 1 nap day) ok, and not get OT.  And his day would immediately be shorter. 

Its certainly not a good idea right now as I think we have some OT built up from the last 3 weeks, and of course he's teething.  But maybe if we can catch up a little with a few long AM naps then it could be worth a try again? What do you think???

[Shiv52]

I think if you didn't have that annoying EW I think he would manage the A times needed for 1 nap ok.

We did long am nap and short pm for a little while at 11 months and then when we started getting refusal again we switched to 1 nap at 12 months cold turkey.  I did not have the strength for the constant tweaking needed like we did when dropping the CN.  She needed a CN and later bedtime every 4/5 days for 3-4 weeks and then the nap lengthened.

I guess if you could get a wake up you are content with you could try one nap (when you feel he's ready) for 2 weeks (with a CN every so often if needed) and even if his day is 5.30am-6pm you could then move it forward until you are at a better wake up and later bedtime.  Be nicer if you had consistent later wake up to start with though. 

[clairebear79]

Tell me about it!!!  Trouble is, I don't think we'll get a later wake up until we're on 1 nap.

Well just as expected we got a 10h 40 night again after 2h 15 day sleep yesterday.  Our day went:

Wake: 5.40
Nap:   9.00 - 10.00   A = 3h 20
Nap:   1.45 - 3.00     A = 3h 45  (nap at grandparents - they put him down at 1.20pm & said he struggled to settle so not sure if A time was too long & he was OT or too short)
BT:    6.45               A = 3h 45

Today he woke at 5.20am.  Do you think I am just better sticking with routine like we did yesterday rather than pushing the 1 nap  

If we keep things as they are we'd NEED a 7.20pm BT to keep a 6am wakeup.  Question is: how do I get there   Do I push the AM nap later in order to keep shifting the day out?  Or just stretch BT?  Trying to push the day out is where we usually come unstuck, b/c it just gets too long & he gets OT.

I am thinking if we DO go down this route the AM nap ought to be later than 9am - would you agree?

The only other thing I can think of is keeping to the 10am nap as we had been doing, but only allow 1.5hrs sleep rather than the full 2hrs.  That way we could hopefully get a CN & then keep to a better BT & hopefully shift the day out.

Heck there's too many options!!!

[Shiv52]

If he got more day sleep would it make his night shorter still?

  Then that would help get you through to a reasonable bedtime. 

Yesterday he got less than 13 hours sleep (10h40 night plus 2hr15 naps) which is low for an 11 month old.  And thats what you have been doing for a bit isn't it, except 20 min 1st nap and 2hour pm nap?  I am wondering if the lack of overall sleep in a 24 hour period is making the OT stick.   I just wonder if he's not tacking his lost day sleep onto his night then does he need slightly more day sleep to have a later bedtime to get you the better wake up?

So a day like:

5.30 Wake up  (4 hours)
9.30 am Nap  (1 hour)
10.30 Wake up (3.5 hours)
2pm Nap (1.5 hours)
3.30pm Wake up (4 hours)
7.30pm Bedtime

[clairebear79]

If he got more day sleep would it make his night shorter still?

TBH I really don't know any more.  Siiigh.  A couple of months ago he was doing around 3hrs day sleep & 11hrs at night.  Then I started to find that if he did 3hrs of naps he'd do a shorter night - around 10hrs.  In the last month or so he has been averaging 13hrs total sleep in 24hrs (sometimes only 12.5hrs) which I also thought was low for his age.  ISWYM about that could be making the OT stick.  So you think he could just be permanently OT   I can't even tell.  I mean he sleeps pretty well at night.  Settles to sleep ok, no NW's, just always a short night.  But he has horrific bags under his eyes all the time.  I know they do say that good day sleep begets good night sleep.  We've just never ever had a decent or consistent routine.  We were doing 1hr AM nap before, but it wouldn't get us a consistent enough PM nap which is why I tried shortening it furher.  But maybe the only reason it wasn't working isn't b/c it was too long, but b/c it was too early, causing UT/OT loop IYSWIM?

The day you suggested - is the idea to stick with the same A times whatever time WU we get the following day (so the day is always 14hrs), or stick with the same nap times i.e. effectively set naps??? So if he woke tomorrow at 6am would his AM nap still be at 9.30 or would it be at 10am after 4hr A time I can certainly give it a try. 

He's down for his nap atm (asleep 9.25am) & has already gone past the 1hr mark.  I had been thinking I'd do 1.5hr AM nap & 45min PM nap, however this wouldn't enable me to push BT out so late as you are suggesting.  Should I allow a 1hr PM nap (if he'll do it  ) so:

Wake: 5.30
Nap:   9.30 - 11.00  (A = 4hrs     S = 1.5hrs)
Nap:   3.00 - 4.00    (A = 4hrs     S = 1hr)
BT:     7.30             (A = 3.5hrs)

Gosh I really really just want to get onto 1 nap.  I feel like we are in such a mess & it is so draining.  6months of EW's & I am honestly just so tired of it.

[clairebear79]

Today, someone took away my lovely baby & swapped him for a devil child.   He has been truly AWFUL today - a real horror.  Screaming tantrums, throwing himself backwards, going stiff as a board when I tried to get him in his car seat......   I know he is teething (and MAJORLY OT) so I have gritted my teeth & got through it.  I love him to pieces but boy, was I glad when he went to bed tonight.  The day went:

Wake: 5.20
Nap:   9.25 - 10.55   A = 4h 5     S = 1.5hrs    (He woke naturally after 1.5hrs)
Nap:   2.45 - 4.00     A = 3h 50   S = 1.25hrs  (PD at 2.20pm - took ages to settle, woke 30mins & 1hr but resettled. I woke him at 4pm to preserve BT)
BT:    7.10               A = 3h 10                     (short but this baba was truly shattered.  BTPD 7pm)

Total day = 13h 50  Naps = 2h 45

I think I pushed too far with a 9.30am nap after a 5.20am wakeup.  After his AM nap he was head shaking & rubbing his eyes a lot during his lunch but perked up afterwards.  Eye rubbing at 2pm (3hrs A) so I gave him his bottle & PD at 2.20 after more eye rubbing, aiming for him to be asleep at 2.30 (3.5hrs A).  I thought that would be OK after a 1.5hr nap.  No crying when I put him in bed but it took a long time to settle.  Then he cried out at 30mins but resettled straight away, & then the same at 1hr.  OT I decided I should wake him at 4pm so as to keep BT at a decent time.  I was expecting we might have to do BT nearer 7.30pm after a 1.25h nap, but he was in a right state by 6.30 & clearly exhausted, so we got him ready for bed. We both agreed he was more tired than we've seen him in ages, despite having more sleep than usual.

Given how tired he's been today I'm thinking I might pull his A times back a little more to 3.5hrs for now (even though I am cautious about doing his AM nap at 9am after we worked so hard to get it later in the day).  And I'm thinking perhaps we ought to roll with some slightly earlier BT's to keep the day a little shorter (say 13hrs) whilst he gets over his OT.  I was also wondering if I should allow 2x 1.5hr naps (if he needs it) for a while until he is caught up.

What do you think?

[clairebear79]

We got a 5.40am WU today, 10.5hrs night sleep, not bad considering he had 30mins extra day sleep yesterday. 

Think will do something similar today & hope this will help us get back on track.  He's been head shaking & eye rubbing & fussing A LOT this morning & I'm certain its not boredom as I keep changing scenery/activities & it is continuing.  I think he is super tired b/c he is teething.  Its only 8am so I think we may struggle to get to 9.30 today.    No matter what though - I am not going to allow that AM nap to go earlier than 9am ever again!

[Shiv52]

Not bad at all. 

{{{hugs}}}  YOu must be wrecked being an entertainer to a LO so tired xx

[clairebear79]

Its certainly challenging!

[newmama12]

Hi all! I've following along here, as we're in the same boat as Claire with the EW's and 2-1 transition. I'm also in the 2-1 thread, but I thought I'd pop in here to get some other perspectives.

My little man will be 1 tomorrow!   But, we're in the midst of a horrible OT/UT loop. All around, he's a great sleeper. For the past few months, his nights have been getting shorter, while naps stay pretty consistent in length and times. I've attempted to cut back the morning nap, but haven't done it with much consistency (I'm chicken!  ). I keep thinking he's OT and I need to catch him up first. But, it's very difficult with 5am WUs every morning.   I also can't seem to get his AM nap much past 8:45/9 b/c he's sooo exhausted from being up so early. He seems to prefer a shorter morning and a longer afternoon (in terms of 'A' times).

Yesterday, I let him sleep and his schedule went as follows...
4:30am WU (this has been his earliest yet. I'm hoping it was just his teeth at are about to break thru)
8:30-10 nap
1:15-3 nap
7:15 BT asleep right away
5:00am WU this morning

As you can see, he naps great even after only 3.15 hours from the AM to the PM nap. I'd say he does well with 3.5 hours max. I know that I should try and push that out a bit, but then we end up in an OT situation, especially, if I cut nap time. But, at the same time, I cannot stand the 5am WUs anymore. I think he's been at this for about 3 months now.  

Help!! Please  

[clairebear79]

No problem Cyndie!

I can't figure my guy out.  Did 3h 50 A time before AM nap 9.30 - 11.00am.  I reckon he easily would have gone down earlier, but anyhow that's what I did.  Settled to sleep quickly, no OT wakeups during the nap & I had to wake him at 1.5hrs.

He's been ok since his nap although still blowing raspberries & head shaking (tired signs for him) no matter what we were doing.  B/c of this I was aiming for 3.5hrs A time & for him to be asleep at 2.30.  He laid chattering & singing & getting a little frustrated every now & then & has only just gone quiet at 2.50pm.  Does that sound like he may be a little UT & that 3.5hrs A time may be a little short after a 1.5hr nap for my guy  

I am also unsure how long to let him sleep here.  I don't really want the day getting stupidly long, but then if he takes a bit of a longer nap, it may be an opportunity to push BT out a bit later.  Having said that, we kept more or less to usual BT last night & he well & truly needed it, & the longer nap just served to help him catch up on his OT.

Should I wake him at 1hr & keep to a 7pm BT, or let him sleep a bit longer (say 1h 15 again) to help him overcome his OT? (in which case do I keep to 7pm BT or do later?)  Any ideas?

[Shiv52]

I'd let him do 1.15 and go for a later bedtime.  I think ultimately the day is going to be long until you get the EW sorted and until his A times are long enough to jump to one nap so may as well use the opportunity to push bedtime to a reasonable time.  What time is your ideal bedtime?

[Shiv52]

Cindie...I think you do need to cut day sleep and get those A times increased.  3.5 hours is really short for 1 year.  have you your own thread anywhere?

[newmama12]

Claire, go for 1.15 (good compromise!) and push BT out just a tad later. Hopefully, it goes well!

Shiv, I do not have my own. I can just start my own instead of hijacking Claire's!

[Shiv52]

Posted on your thread. Just thought you'd get more eyes!