2-1 transition - short am/long pm naps with chronic EWer

[clairebear79]

Thanks ladies

We got a 6.30am WU after a 7pm BT so 11.5hrs sleep again.  That was with a 12.5hr day & 2hrs of naps.  I'm pleased but still a little worried he is OT & only sleeping well through exhaustion as he's only done around 2hrs day sleep the last 3 days.  That's fine on a 12hr day but seems too little if his day is 13hrs.  He's doing an awful lot of arching his back atm & keeps stopping to lay his head on the floor all the time so I'm pretty sure he's tired out.  This is b/c he isn't taking a long enough nap in the PM - yet I'm struggling to get him to do more.

He is cutting a 2nd molar now so we'll stick as we are for a few more days & then if he seems able, we'll work on increasing that AM A time a little more.

[sianie]

I'd say an 11.5hr night was pretty good, especially if he's teething molars!

[Shiv52]

I think M was doing about 2 hours, maybe 2.15 hours day sleep and a 13 hour day before we switched to 1 nap.  1.5 in the am and a CN.  and 11.5 hours at night.  Once she started consistently refusing the CN we moved to one nap but her A times were 4.5-5 hours though. 

[clairebear79]

Yesterday went:
Wake: 6.30
Nap:  10.45 - 12.00  (at IL's house - he looked tired when I left at 10am so think they PD too late)
CN:     4.35 - 4.55    (MIL said he looked tired 3pm ish when she gave him his bottle.  They brought him home for 4pm so I PD immediately - of course by then I think it was too late. Took 35mins to settle.  Then I had to wake him to preserve BT)
BT:  7.00

He only had 1h 35 day sleep yesterday & his final A time to BT was 2h 20 after a 20min nap.  This morning he woke at 4.40 crying, then back to sleep until 5.40am.  He might have dozed for another 10mins just before 6am but I'm not really sure.  So a shorter night than I'd have liked really, esp given how little day sleep he had yesterday.  Do you think his EW was b/c he was OT or that his A time to BT wasn't long enough?

Today his AM nap started at 10am.  I really watched him carefully for tired signs.  He had big grey bags & seemed to be getting a bit hyper, then buried his head in my lap.  But there was no eye rubbing, fussing or yawning.  When I put him in his cot he immediately stood up wanting to play & fought me putting him in his sleeping bag.  He settled pretty quickly once I left the room though.  Does that sound like I got it about right   Bit worried about my skills at reading his cues - whether he was UT or possibly OT?

Once she started consistently refusing the CN we moved to one nap but her A times were 4.5-5 hours though.

I think this is the trouble.  He is really fighting his CN every day, but I'm not sure his A times are long enough to drop it just yet.  Its so tricky!  Would you suggest I always cap that AM nap to 1.5hrs?  I know 2hrs is too much but wondered about 1.75hrs?

[sianie]

At around your DS's age my LO's were doing a 1.5hr AM nap then a 45min PM nap (which I had to start shortening once they got to around 1yr old). I used to cap the nap at 1.5hrs otherwise we wouldn't get a CN in.

[clairebear79]

Thanks.  I recall you saying you did set naps at 10am & 3pm with BT at 7pm is that right? 

He napped 10am-11.30am this morning (I woke him), however I find I can't get him down for his CN after just 3.5hrs A time.  He needs more like 4hrs.  I don't really like extending the day beyond 7pm so I think I am already on the verge of needing to shorten the CN so I can fit in a decent A time after it. 

I'm hoping he'll be asleep by 3.30pm & if so we've got 3.5hrs left.  If I allow a 45min CN is 2h 45min A time to BT enough or do I need more like 3h???

[sianie]

Yes 10am for around 1.5hrs then a CN around 3pm at your LO's age although the CN started to get pushed later as he handled more A-time.

DS eventually went to 1 nap at around 14mths & just dropped the PM nap & did an early BT instead. This is the tricky thing about the transition, as they are able to handle more A-time their days get longer so you do end up with much later BT's during the transition until they get onto 1 nap.

I used to roughly do a 3hr A-time max after a CN of 30/45 mins.

[Shiv52]

I would cap the am nap at 1.5 for sure.  I think 2.5 A time after a CN is too short TBH.  I would do at least 3. 

This is the tricky thing about the transition, as they are able to handle more A-time their days get longer so you do end up with much later BT's during the transition until they get onto 1 nap.

Yes its hard as the day has to be long enough to accommodate the A times and the naps. 

Its great he's starting to need 4 hours A time after his am nap.  The longer A times he can manage the closer you will get to 1 nap. 

[clairebear79]

as they are able to handle more A-time their days get longer so you do end up with much later BT's during the transition until they get onto 1 nap.

Or you get stuck with EW's! 

He went down for his CN at 3.40pm so 4h 10 A time.  I woke him at 4.15pm so CN = 35min & he was WELL ready for bed at 7pm (2h 45 A time).  Think he's still pretty tired out from the lack of DT sleep yesterday & a shorter night.  I'm hopeful tonight will be a better one, then that stands us in good stead to push that AM A time a little tomorrow.

I will definitely be glad when this transition is over!

[clairebear79]

We were up at 5.55am today so 10h 55 sleep.  Not too bad. 

Ladies I really need your help here.  I've watched him so carefully this morning for tired cues.  At about 9.30am his bags under his eyes were really heavy, grey & pronounced & his left eye started to twitch.  Yet he kept playing happily, no eye rubbing, yawning or fussing.  By 10am he was still playing happily but losing coordination.  Still no eye rubs, fusses or yawns.  I decided he looked pretty tired out so PD at 10.10.  He started to yell as soon as we headed upstairs & threw himself back as I put him in the cot then stood straight up - almost a little hyper.  I left him to it & shouted for a few mins & he was then asleep by 10.17.

'm finding it soooo difficult to judge if he is tired *enough* to go down or if I'm already putting him down too late.  The fact that his eye is twitching & he's got permanent grey bags & is quite irritable makes me think that he's pretty tired out ATM.  What do you think  I almost PD at 9.30am but then was worried he would be UT so I didn't.  I keep thinking maybe I am just pushing him TOO far & maybe he's nowhere near as far along the 2-1 as I would like.

I also noticed he did his longest nights when he did 3h 40 of A time in the AM followed by a 1.5 or 1.75hr nap & then a 30min CN in the afternoon, with his day kept 12.5-13hrs max.  Do you think maybe I am better to try & stick with that to try & overcome the OT or keep on pushing that AM A time to get us onto 1 nap asap???

[sianie]

'm finding it soooo difficult to judge if he is tired *enough* to go down or if I'm already putting him down too late.

I always found this tricky, hence why set naps worked well for me, lol!

I think if you are worried that he is tired then go with your gut & put him down earlier, there's no point trying to push his A-times if he's already too tired & if he did a good night after a long total of daytime sleep then try it! He's still very young to transition to 1 nap & there's plenty of time to get to that pint when he's ready!

[clairebear79]

Thanks

I took a gamble today & let him sleep as long as he wanted for his AM nap.  And luckily we got a teensy CN in too.  The day went:
Wake: 5.55
Nap: 10.17 - 12.32   A = 4h 22  S = 2h 15     (he cried out at 1h 10 but resettled)
CN:    4.37 - 4.50    A = 4h 5    S = 13mins   (fell asleep in car on way home from seaside)
BT:    7.10              A = 2h 20

I'm hoping that allowing him the longer sleep will have helped him to catch up on any OT that had accumulated & then we can start afresh tomorrow.  FX'd the extra day sleep or the CN too late in the day doesn't come back to bite us tomorrow.

[clairebear79]

Ladies he woke at 6.20am so 11h 15 sleep.

I really can't work O out.  Today, he did the same AM A time as yesterday - it only produced a 1h 30 nap, and he is currently fighting a CN in cot 4hrs 15 later.  He's getting really angry/upset & I am going to have to get him back up as I think he's just not ready to sleep. 

Only a few days ago he did a 1.5hr AM nap & took a CN 4hrs later so I thought it'd be about right.  Was he catching up on OT yesterday & now UT today     He's still got big grey bags under his eyes so I'm sure he must be tired.  It seems like every day we get totally different results with the same A times.  Or is it just b/c he's in his cot?  I can't be driving around for hours every day just trying to get him to take a nap surely   I remember this is what the 3-2 transition was like & we spent almost 2 months trying to get rid of the darn CN!  Hateful.

Ladies I don't feel like we can keep on having all these PM nap struggles.  The 2-1 advice seems to suggest that if you get nap struggles/refusal you should switch to short AM/long PM - would you agree?

[clairebear79]

Hi ladies, our day went:

Wake: 5.55am (11.5h night)
Nap:   10.00 - 11.20    A = 4h 5   S = 1h 20
Nap:   3.35 - 4.15      A = 4h 15  S = 40 min
BT:     7.10

Not sure if AM nap was cut short due to him not being *quite* tired enough (though after yesterday he did seem pretty tired if you ask me) OR if it was b/c he had done a poo.  I suspect poo to be the culprit as he still seemed tired after he got up.

He went to MIL's this avo & so I asked her to PD for a PM nap as I knew he'd be tired out due to the short AM nap.  She PD at 3pm, we got back at 3.30 & he was still fussing a bit but went to sleep soon after.  Woke 4.15 crying & very grumpy - with another dirty nappy - probably why he took so long to settle to sleep & woke up early.  He took quite a while to settle at BT & I'm hoping he'll do a decent night after yet another day of 2h or less total day sleep.

Should I be concerned about how little day sleep he is having ATM   I am still worrying about him being OT, but if I PD earlier for his AM nap he just doesn't seem to be tired enough to sleep a longer nap.  I need him to sleep more than 1.5hrs as if we get PM nap refusal at least he'll have had one decent sleep to get him through to BT.  1.5hrs doesn't seem enough to me for a 1 nap day - or is it

[Shiv52]

Firstly i am really pleased you are getting such good nights.  11.5 hours is great. 

1.5hrs doesn't seem enough to me for a 1 nap day - or is it

When we first changed to one nap it was 1.5 hours for the first 3-4 weeks and I had to AP a CN every 4-5 days to keep OT at bay.  I also attempted to extend the nap and after a few weeks the nap extended and she started taking a 2.5-3 hour nap so our day was something like:

8am Wake up
12.30-3/3.30 Nap
8/8.30 Bedtime

We generally did a 12.5 hour day as she has never really done more than an 11.5 hour night.  But 1.5 nap wouldn;t have been enough to keep her going long term on a one nap routine so I do think you are right that you would need his nap to lengthen out even to 2 hours to make it on a one nap routine.

What are thinking about going back to short am/long pm?