2-1 transition - short am/long pm naps with chronic EWer

[Kay Dee]

That sucks Claire, teething is the last thing you need at the moment!

It sounds like he does his best nights after 1 nap days but then is very tired the following day so needs two naps again. I think you just have to muddle on like this, doing the long AM nap and pushing it out gradually until he adjusts and can do more and more 1 nap days.....and AP'ing a catnap on the days the AM nap is too early/too short...

At least you know he does good nights after 1 nap days so once he's through the transition things should settle down for you

x

[clairebear79]

I think you just have to muddle on like this, doing the long AM nap and pushing it out gradually until he adjusts and can do more and more 1 nap days.....and AP'ing a catnap on the days the AM nap is too early/too short...

Ugh.  I could cry at that!!!!  We've muddled on since he was 5 months old & still have never had a consistent routine or consistent WU's!  I feel like I'll be muddling along forever with this one!

Ladies our day went:
Wake: 5.30
Nap:  10.30 - 11.30 & then 11.55 - 12.30    A = 5h 05   S = 1h 35 (broken)
CN:    4.20 - 4.40                                    A = 3h 50  S = 20mins
BT:    7.00                                              A = 2h 20  (pleeease don't let this be too short)

Total day 13.5hrs, total naps 1h 55

I really don't know what to do tomorrow.  Ladies if he EW's again do you think I need to let this set nap go & PD earlier given that he is teething.  Or do I need to keep the nap where it is, or keep pushing a 5hr A time (& push through the OT) to try & get his AM nap shifted out so we can do away with the dreaded CN

I am also quite concerned that I am just encouraging the EW by letting him have a long nap in the AM, b/c then we either get nap refusal & OT by BT, leading to EW, OR we get a CN that is too late in the day so I have to keep it super short or we get EW (but this means he's having less than 2hrs day sleep).  Any thoughts???

[Kay Dee]

keep pushing a 5hr A time (& push through the OT) to try & get his AM nap shifted out so we can do away with the dreaded CN

This is what I would do, I think you're at the stage where's there's not much left to do but push on the A times so you can get to one nap...

[clairebear79]

Ladies, the last couple of days have been 1 nap days:

Wake: 6.30
Nap: 11.30 - 1.30 (At IL's house - longest nap he's ever done there)
BT: 6.40

Yesterday:
Wake: 6.00
Nap: 11.00 - 1.45 (I woke him as I got scared to leave him any longer)
BT:    7.00

Today:
Wake: 5.55  (I think.  He did wake at 4.50am ish & chattered & I thought he was gonna be up for the day due to the long nap he had but DH says he thinks he went back to sleep)
Nap:   9.25 - 10.10 (in pushchair.  Totally unexpected for him to fall asleep, but he had been very fussy this morning so I let him nap.  he woke himself after 1 sleep cycle - we rarely get more in the pushchair)
Nap:   1.30 - 3.00  (just about to go wake him up from this.  I think maybe the A before it was too long 3h 20 but I PD at 1pm & it took him ages to settle.  No OT WU's at all.)

Aiming for BT at 7pm - does that sound ok?  Ladies I think I am exhausting him by pushing these really long A times on him.  He just looks so so tired out.

[Kay Dee]

He's doing some good naps and good nights though. That's great!  

I think being tired is part of the transition It's a big jump in A times and it does take them a while to adjust. That's probably why he needed a two nap day yesterday to catch up. But IMO the solid sleep is showing that he's tired but not overtired. How did he do last night?

x

[clairebear79]

Hiya

Yesterday went:
Wake: 6am  (11hrs sleep after a 2 nap day the day before)
A  =    4.75hrs
Nap:  10.45 - 1/1.15 (not exactly sure when he woke but sometime between 1 & 1.15 so 2.25-2.5hrs sleep)
A = 5.25/5.5hrs
BT:    6.30

Not a peep out of him all night & this morning he woke at 6.30am - 12 hrs sleep for the first time EVER!!!!! 

However, looks dreadful today, huge big bags under his eyes & he has been rather fussy this morning.  Although he wasn't yawning/eye rubbing/laying his head on the floor, he looked pretty tired so I PD at 10am & he was asleep very quickly, only 3.5hrs A time.  So today we are going for 45min AM nap & 1.5hr PM nap, though this will be 2-3.30pm & I am hoping that 3.5hrs A time after a 1.5hr nap will be enough - do you think that's too short

Ladies I am concerned that all this jumping around with his A times & naps is being inconsistent with him & will just confuse his bodyclock.  Would the best thing be to consistently put him down for his nap after 4.75hrs A time, like I did yesterday & keep at it for a week until he is used to it???  I am just worried that it will push him to the point of absolute exhaustion, given that after just one 1 nap day with 2.25hr nap & followed by a 12hr night, he only made it 3.5hrs before his AM nap.

Any thoughts?

[sianie]

Hey, sorry, this may be too late for you!

What a great night! 

It is very normal at this stage for LO's to need a 2 nap day following a 1 nap day once they start. You might find that he's more tired today, even after the 12hr night as the longer A-times he needed to get through the 1 nap day will take their toll on him until he adjusts. If you are worried about OT then alternate 1 & 2 nap days until you feel he is better able to cope.

Hoe did his day end up?

[Kay Dee]

Not a peep out of him all night & this morning he woke at 6.30am - 12 hrs sleep for the first time EVER!!!!!

Brilliant!!! Well done you

Totally agree that you might need to alternate between 1 and 2 nap days but if you're worried about consistency you could try a 'bridging nap' on the 2 nap days, so literally 10-15mins catnap around 9.30/10am to get him through to nap time.

[clairebear79]

Hi ladies - today has gone:

Wake: 6.30           
Nap: 10.03 - 10.48  A = 3h 33 S = 45min
Nap:  1.50 - 3.20    A = 3h 02 S = 1.5hrs (we woke him to preserve BT)
BT:    7.00             A = 3h 40

B/c I PD a lot earlier than I'd hoped to this morning, I didn't want to risk PM nap refusal again, so I opted for a 45min AM nap to ensure we got the PM nap.  As the PM nap was fairly late in the day I was a bit scared he wouldn't have enough A before BT & this might mean EW tomorrow.  However, he was well ready for both naps & was rubbing his eyes before we took him up at BT so I think it was what he needed.  He's definitely been a lot happier today too & far fewer tantrums.

I'm just hoping & praying for a decent night's sleep from him tonight & then we can try the same again tomorrow.  I'm half tempted to put him down at the same time every day for a few days & just hope that he settles & gets caught up on his sleep a bit.

I do think Oliver is accumulating tiredness from his 1 nap days.  Which is a shame b/c he sleeps so much longer when he does them!  But I think the long A times are just too much for him to handle full time. 

So ladies, if we have to carry on alternating 1 & 2 nap days, how long could I be doing that for?  Is it just a matter of a few weeks, or are we talking possibly months?

if you're worried about consistency you could try a 'bridging nap' on the 2 nap days, so literally 10-15mins catnap around 9.30/10am to get him through to nap time.

If I were to do this, what time would I do the big nap?  12ish?  As it'd need to be a little later right?  Also would you suggest doing this nap in the cot or in the car/stroller?  I find if I PD in the cot & then wake him after just 10-15 mins he gets very very upset b/c he's just fallen into a deep sleep.  I just can't guarantee I'll get the nap in the pushchair - I tried to yesterday AM since he did that the day before &  he just didn't sleep!

[Kay Dee]

Also would you suggest doing this nap in the cot or in the car/stroller?  I find if I PD in the cot & then wake him after just 10-15 mins he gets very very upset b/c he's just fallen into a deep sleep.  I just can't guarantee I'll get the nap in the pushchair - I tried to yesterday AM since he did that the day before &  he just didn't sleep!

I always did it in the stroller. Often DD would fall asleep without me having to go anywhere! But she falls asleep easily in the car/stroller...

How are things now?

[clairebear79]

Hiya

Day 3 of 2 naps.  Last 2 days went:

Wake: 6.15
Nap: 10.05 - 10.50
Nap:  2.15 - 3.30   (I aimed to have him asleep at 1.50 but he chattered away until 2.15.  Woke him 3.30 to keep BT at 7pm)
BT:   7.10             (chattered for a while before settling)

Wake: 6-6.30  (woke at 6 but think he might have dozed on & off til 6.30 but not exactly sure as he did coo every 10mins or so)
Nap:  10 - 10.45
Nap:   2.15 - 3.15  (at IL's for nap - he woke himself after 1 hr.  MIL PD at 1.35pm & he didnt sleep til 2.15 - UT when PD leading to OT when he fell asleep )
BT: 7.00pm

He's definitely way better rested with 2 nap days.  The bags under his eyes are almost gone & he has been a LOT happier & far fewer tantrums.  He's going down easily at 10am every day, BUT he seems to have resisted that PM nap the last couple of days.  I've been trying to do 3hrs A after a 45min nap but he's not settled until 3.5hrs - does that sound like too much after 45mins

I'm wondering if this is the sign that he's catching up on his OT & needs an A time increase somewhere.  But I'm reluctant to go back to long AM as we just get PM nap refusal & its making him OT, plus I'm not sure he can do 1 nap full time yet.  So I'm thinking our best choice is to keep AM nap at 10am but shorten it a little more to say 30mins & then hope for a 1hr 45 nap afterwards from say 1/1.15 - 2.45/3 which gives a longer A to BT at 7pm - what do you think    If that doesn't do it then I'll have to cut further & try your idea KDee of a bridging nap.  I think my big worry is if I try for that in the pushchair he just won't take it!  Though I guess that'll be my proof that he's not actually tired for an AM nap eh?!

[sianie]

I've been trying to do 3hrs A after a 45min nap but he's not settled until 3.5hrs - does that sound like too much after 45mins

I used to do a 3hr A after a 30 min nap & if he's caught up a bit on OT & therefore better rested it could be he can handle a slightly later A-time or, as you suggested, cap at 30 mins (which is the route I went down with my LO's). You might need to do the PM nap at around 1.30pm (so 3hrs A-time after his AM nap), wake at 3pm-ish then BT for 7pm.

[clairebear79]

You might need to do the PM nap at around 1.30pm (so 3hrs A-time after his AM nap), wake at 3pm-ish then BT for 7pm.

Thanks for that.  Only just picked up your reply but this is exactly what we did today!

Wake: 6.40am  (11h 40 sleep - not sure how?!!!)
Nap:  10.07 - 10.37  (he probably wasn't really ready for this nap but I PD anyway at 9.50 to be consistent & he didn't protest so I left him to fall asleep)
Nap:   1.30 - 3.00  (I PD at 1.10pm but took him a while to settle - I just don't think he was ready!  DH woke him at 3pm)
BT:     7.00pm

We cut the AM nap to 30mins b/c he was taking too long to settle for his PM nap so it was falling too late in the day.  He's been quite happy again today although he had quite big bags under his eyes by bedtime. 

Ladies I really don't like that I am having to wake him from every single nap at the moment - it sucks.   Is this something I just have to put up with until we get to 1 nap?  Or should he eventually get to a point where he starts waking himself?  I hate to feel like he's not having the sleep he needs & I'd really love to be able to leave him to wake naturally for at least one of his naps, but if I do the AM nap he refuses the PM nap & gets OT, if I do the PM nap he'd not have enough A time to BT & then he'd EW. Siigh!

[sianie]

Is this something I just have to put up with until we get to 1 nap?

Yep, I'm afraid so....I know it's hard but it's a necessary evil!

[clairebear79]

Hi Ladies

We have stuck with the 2 naps for now as he has seemed a lot happier & better rested.  However, I think we may be needing to increase A as he is resisting his naps.  Since I last posted our days have gone:

18/8
Wake:  6.00
Nap:   12.05 - 12.25  (went out for walk in pushchair at 9.30am & hoped he'd nap during walk - he didn't.  Went to HV clinic & playgroup & he was up all morning.  Napped in pushchair on way home - clearly OT by this point as crying before we headed home.  Woke crying at 25mins)
Nap:  1.30 - 3.00  Managed to get him down for the rest of his nap!  Phew!
BT:    7.00pm

19/8
Wake: 5.50am  (probably due to being OT)
Nap:   9.35 - 10.15  (earlier due to EW - we woke him at 45mins)
Nap:   1.35 - 3.05  (he woke himself at 1.5hrs)
Bt:     7pm

20/8 (his birthday!!!)
Wake: 6.45am  (yay!!!  11h 40 sleep!!!)
Nap:  10.05 - 10.50  (he fought going down for this - but we did have to wake him at 45mins)
Nap:   2.30 - 4.00     (he woke himself at 1.5hrs)
BT:    7.10pm           (was scared A would be too short & he'd EW)

21/8
Wake:  6.40am  (yay!! 11h 30 night sleep!!!)
Nap:    9.50 - 10.35  (tried to PD at 9.30 but he wasn't ready.  we woke him)
Nap:    2.00 - 3.30    (he woke himself)
BT:     7.15              (took a while to settle - think A time too short before BT)

Today:
Wake:  6.30am  (11h 15 sleep.  Quite a few stirrings in the night & he did wake at 5ish & 6ish but went back to sleep)
Nap:  10.10 - 10.55 (I tried to PD for 9.45 & he kicked up a fuss.  he woke himself from nap at 45mins)
Nap:  2.35 - 4.15    (I PD at 2.15pm & he wasn't very happy with that even though he'd done 3h 40 A time after a 45min nap.  He stirred at the 30min & 1hr mark so think OT.  Then I fell asleep & so he napped for longer & later than I wanted - oops!  He woke himself)
BT:    7.30pm         (I'm very worried this A time wasn't long enough but he did start to look tired around 6.45 & settled to sleep pretty easily with no complaints - unlike his naptimes today!)

So ladies.  He is resisting his naps more & more.  I certainly can't easily get him down for his AM nap before 10am unless he woke pretty early & today he woke himself after 45mins (after a 3hr 40 A time) which would suggest UT right?  He is also not appearing to show any tired signs whatsoever & is fighting settling for his PM naps.  The last few days he has woken himself at the 1.5hr mark which I am pleased about as it would suggest he has had enough sleep.  The big problem is that the PM nap is starting to fall too late in the day to get enough A time in before BT.  Today we had to do a later BT & TBH I think it maybe wasn't late enough & that we may get EW tomorrow.

So I clearly need to tweak something somewhere.  I already know he can do a great 1 nap day with a 4.75hr 1st A time & sleep a 12hr night after it.  So is my boy telling me its time to do 1 nap?  If so do I just jump straight to it?  Keep him up 4.75hrs?  Or is that too much of a jump from what he is currently doing?

Or would you suggest I go down the more gentle route of cutting the AM nap to 30mins for a week & trying to get him down at 10am every day consistently & then 1.30pm for his PM nap & see what happens before I do anything more drastic?  I don't want to make him OT by making too big a change all at once, but I see we can't go on as we are b/c naps are getting tough & they aren't usually a problem.