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Offline Roseii

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Diet and behaviour?
« on: July 12, 2011, 13:52:31 pm »
Not meaning to start a debate, I'm wondering if you notice a link between diet and behaviour in your LO?

DD1's getting more and more...difficult  :-\ And I can't help wondering if it's coinciding with me being more lax with what she eats.

She's always eaten well so I've never refused her treats, on the basis that if she eats a good meal, a biscuit afterwards is ok.

She rarely asks for any sort of sugary snack, but she loves squash, can't get enough of it. I can't stand it myself but I buy Robinsons fruit and barley (the pink one that tastes like soap imo) for her and DH. Up until DD2 was born she only really drank water but the juice became more frequent and now she won't have water  :( And throws a fit if I refuse juice.

I know I should maybe switch to whole fruit juice?? Just more expensive  :-\

So typical day would be:

cup of milk
Rice krispies and milk
Banana
Bit of toast and butter (white bread)

Ham and cheese sandwich (white bread)
Cucumber
Blueberries

Pasta and meatballs (all home made) with parmesan
Yoghurt (like petit felous)

Snacks are generally berries, raisins, sometimes crisps, sometimes biscuits. Drinks  ::) 3 cups of milk, around 4-5 cups of squash (v diluted but squash all the same)

What do you think?? Should I be making changes to potentially help her behaviour?

TIA x
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Offline ~*Nicole*~

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 14:10:28 pm »
I made almost this exact same post about my DD awhile back. Let me see if I can find the link.

(UGH, I can't find it, sorry)

Only difference is that DD's diet was far worse than what you have described for your DD's. I am super lax about foods and I feel horribly guilty for that. I do notice a correlation and when she is eating and sleeping well she behaves MUCH better. Her sleep isn't amazing right now, but it's not terrible so she shouldn't be handling things as terribly as she is right now and I guarantee you it's her diet. We need to get back on track over here.







Offline Roseii

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 14:57:22 pm »
Same here Nicole- I def can't blame it all on sleep.

What foods do you think affect her? Sugar?

x
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Offline ~*Nicole*~

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 15:13:49 pm »
Yes, def. sugar and things that have tons of colors/preservatives, etc. She does a lot better when I make more things as opposed to use a lot of convenience/pre-packaged stuff and also when she drinks water and milk over juices. When she has the "bad" things in moderation (rather than avoiding them completely) she is MUCH better. We've just been having our kitchen worked on and with her baby brother being so little and refluxy and MSPI it's been HARD to get her eating well. I can't wait until our house is back in some kind of order!







Offline deb

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 15:50:08 pm »
I was just about to log off when I saw this post. I will ABSOLUTELY be back.

short answer: YES YES YES!!!!

Start here: http://www.diannecraft.org/article-001.htm

Offline *Amy*

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2011, 15:56:51 pm »
Ha ha this is so weird! Dh got home from work and ds was hyper! Dh asked did he have any sugar and he and just eaten a mini pack of haribo jelly bears! With my ds it is almost instance the difference in his behaviour after he has sugar! I haves recently stopped yogurts and he only gets plain with fruit added. He is a good eater and eats most things. He still thinks that a digestive is a treat....long may that last! He discovered juice late on like when we was almost 3 and recently it is all he has wanted, so I bought him a new water bottle and told him it is only for water. This seems to have worked and he can fill it himself from the water machine which he likes to do!

Just read that article....very interesting! Ds has only ever had one antibiotic and his attention is quite good for a three year old. But I don't give him any supplements....does anyone give their kids a supplement?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 16:03:13 pm by *Amy* »


Offline EllenS

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2011, 16:28:27 pm »
We discovered our DD#1 is sensitive to artificial food coloring, especially yellow.  She does not go "hyper" like you normally associate with sugar, but very belligerent, physically aggressive, angry and irrational - screaming, kicking.  When she has sugar she just wants to run and jump.  we had to change brands of yogurt, even mac & cheese, some crackers/cookies, only natural fruit juice, jam, etc.  Fortunately, we are crafty, so making our own Easter Egg dyes and such is a fun project.
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Offline ~*Nicole*~

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2011, 17:19:13 pm »
deb-That reminder about the antibiotics and overgrowth of yeast made me realize that I was on IV antibiotics during labor/delivery of DS as I was carrying Group B Strep. I wonder if that has anything to do with our possible yeast issue and his food intolerances????







Offline *Amy*

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2011, 17:20:21 pm »
Yes perhaps I should explain my "hyper" def physically aggressive, demanding, more stubborn, when he hugs me or kisses me he squeezes me and kisses me hard on the face. He can't play quietly on the floor it has to be some physical game that involves something daring....like jumping from couch to arm chair! He is completely irrational and will get angry very easily. He def talks in a much louder voice as well.


Offline deb

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 17:50:33 pm »
I teach private music lessons at home. Yesterday my clarinet student was even less focused than usual, remarkably so, which was pretty problematic when it came to my trying to actually TEACH her anything.

Finally on the way out the door, mom revealed to me that it was Free Slurpee Day at 7/11, as the date was July 11th (in the States we write that 7/11, not 11/7). Aaaahhhh..... the light dawned.

When I volunteered at the girls' elementary school, I was appalled at the lack of focus by the kids I was desperately trying to teach the alphabet to - and then I saw school breakfasts: starchy foods, topped with pretend maple syrup (which was high fructose corn syrup with maple "flavoring") and washed down with pink strawberry milk, colored w/artificial colorings and sweetened with MORE HFCS. *shudder*

Nicole: when Nat was born, she would let out these HUGE horrible farts. The only thing I could think of was my IV during labor. Gave her probiotics and they cleared up THE NEXT DAY. I didn't know about infant probiotics at the time so they were my adult ones (oops) and she was still less than a week old, but the difference was dramatic.

The article I linked to was one I found when Josie was having horrific rages at preschool, and the thing that got us started on the dietary journey and on probiotics in the first place, so I link to it often.

We've since found that when the girls have sugar, especially HFCS, when they have fructose in general (meaning that well-meaning teachers and parents who give my kids 2 or more juice boxes), or when they have artificial colors and stuff get WAY hyper, and weepy, and combative. (We have this issue with dairy, BTW, along with horrific flatulence.)

I'll try to comment more when Josie isn't waiting for the computer. :)

Offline ~*Nicole*~

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 01:16:40 am »
We don't seem to have much of an issue with dairy. I find I can give her regular cow's milk, store bought yogurt, cheeses, etc. and she is fine. It's more the processed crap and the juices and the candy that seem to really get her going. Once my stupid kitchen is functional again and I can stock up on better foods I think we will see a dramatic improvement in her behavior again.

The LOUDNESS and the AGGRESSION are really doing a number on me at the moment. I wish she would stop SCREAMING.







Offline Katet

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2011, 01:50:45 am »
With the wanting other drinks, one rule we made was the "2 sugar foods/day" rule & that included juice/cordial etc & so I had a whole heap of pictures (I took photos) of the foods that were sugar foods & stuck them on magnets, then had a chart on the fridge & I'd put the pictures up in the chart when they had had the foods & that was it for the day. Now they are a bit older I don't count juice/cordial in the sugar foods, because they rarely have more than 1 of either a day, but when they were preschoolers I did limit the whole sugar food & with the chart it took the individual arguments out of the equation in the long term.
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Offline rach321

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2011, 07:43:10 am »
We found that's ds1 reacts really badly to chocolate so we try to avoid that at all costs - not always possible when he sees all his friends having some but we do our best. He also is a squash fan and we also saw a behaviour improvement when we switched to the ones with no artificial sweeteners, he has it really dilute and us very good about cleaning his teeth.

Offline Mortish

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2011, 08:57:49 am »
You are definitely right to assume diet and behaviour go hand in hand.  I gotta say I had to really take a long hard look at my girls diet, I found that throughout the day they were having too much sugar in their diet...I found them way too hyper and over the top with their behaviour...so looked at their diet....pulled it right in and the difference is astounding....so yeah, definitely take those sugary drinks out of the equation and just go back to plain old water...never killed us when we were growing up:D  I even started making my own cakes and biscuits and lowering the sugar content.  Gotta say I am not an advocate for artificial sweetener for children, I just think we just have to limit the amount of sugar, preservatives and food colouring and it can make such a huge difference.

Offline Shiv52

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2011, 09:01:21 am »
I haven't noticed a direct link but I know since R came along things have slipped in terms of healthy eating.  M only starting getting juice before her 3rd birthday and loves it.  Same with biscuits and chocolate.  Loves them.  And while I don't notice a big difference in her behaviour  I had noticed she gets much grumpier after sugary snacks where she would have had a yogurt and raisin.  

This last months I have have finally got it together.  There is no longer juice in the house.  Its just gone.   In a few weeks I'll get some more and we'll discuss that its for weekends and she can have a glass with dinner on Saturday and Sunday. Its smoothies and milk and water through the week. I think the problem is I was finding that the rule bending where treats were concerned just didn't end it.  Where she was only allowed chocolate before she has since has jelly sweets and my gran has started giving her those hard sweets etc which are just so bad for teeth.  Same with drinks, used to be milk or water, now juice.  Whats next?  Fizzy drinks?  I just know I don't want Rosa to be having  so much junk and that will be so much harder to do if she's see M always having it so I've made the decision to cut the junk both to help M  eat healthier and avoid the grumpiness and also for Rosa.  


In general I find if its not in the house its  much less of an issue.  It is much harder to get DD to accept she can't have something if she knows its in the cupboard.  So you  could just let her see the last of the juice be used and explain that this is the last of it and you won't be buying any more.  DD and I talk alot about how it is my job to make sure she eats well to grow and to help her look after her teeth.  THen in a few weeks you could get more juice and start the 'weekend rule' or 'one glass a day'.  I've started having treats in the cupboards again now and DD1 will say 'oh they are treats for sometimes' and thats it.  Alot better than the constant demands!  I'll get juice again at some stage and it'll be the same rule.  






Offline Shdef

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2011, 10:48:48 am »
I was just about to log off when I saw this post. I will ABSOLUTELY be back.

short answer: YES YES YES!!!!




This. Sam and Jenn grew up in the UK and seriously most of their diet was junk. White bread, processed cheese, Robinson's diluting, cereal with artificial colours like fruit loops, crisps and pot noodle or frozen pizza for dinner, turkey twizzlers and lunchtables for lunch at school.

Jenn had awful eczema, could not attend school a lot and Sam was seriously hyperactive and very annoying  ::)


So... then I came  ;D born and bread East German, not very adventurous with food, but no junk at all.

Bought fruit and frozen veg, made simple roast dinners, whole bread sandwiches with chicken or proper cheese for lunch, made lots of salads with fresh ingredients, bought proper butter, snacks were chocolate or baked crisps without artificial anything and the kids improved 100%

Sam has never been hyperactive again and Jennifer's eczema went from bleeding open to non-existent.

This artificial stuff just is not good for us. I am not saying buy everything organic or grow your own veg, but replace whatever you have with healthier versions.

Rice crispies with oats and honey, ribena or robinsons with whole juice diluted with water (same price) organic yoghurt with blended frozen fruit and some sugar (cheap). Cucumer and blueberries are fine, just wash them thoroughly.

Some kids react to dairy or wheat, but behavioral reactions to that are rare.


Offline Mom to M&M

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2011, 11:46:53 am »
ITA with a lot of what Steffi, Deb and others have said, BUT I disagree that behavioral reactions to dairy or wheat are rare. With dairy in particular I've seen quite a few behavioral reactions. One of my best friends has two sons who are dairy intolerant. One gets physical symptoms like congestion but the other gets much more hyper, anxious and "mean" when he has dairy. My daughter not only gets constipated from too much dairy (small amounts are fine) but gets unfocused and has a hard time paying attention/listening if she has too much. And this is with artificial sweeteners and too much junk in her/our diets at all. She also reacts to too much chocolate (gets cranky and "mean" and reflux flares). My son gets too many loose stools and gets congested from dairy but his behavior also suffers - he becomes clingy and hyper as well.

Like many have said, barring true allergies or severe reactions, I think moderation is best. I had a friend who growing up wasn't allowed any junk food at home. She went the other way in high school and would sneak junk food, raid pantries when babysitting, etc. She has since calmed down and eats healthily/balanced but for a while it really threw her for a loop.
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Offline Katet

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2011, 12:24:55 pm »
Dairy is the big one we have reactions to here with DS1, too much dairy (funnily not including icecream) definitely makes him more moody & grumpy - often because he gets constipated!
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Offline Roseii

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2011, 12:26:25 pm »
Deb thanks for that link-I keep meaning to give my girls probiotics, initially thinking more of DD2 as she has tummy troubles anyway (DD1 never has) Now I know I need to!!

Amy I like the special water bottle idea...going to try that.

This whole sugar/sweetener/colourings thing is such a minefield to me  :-\ As far as I know she doesn't have a lot but then I don't even know what's in Robinson's fruit and barley...She almost never has "sweets" and something like chocolate is a rare treat. I make my own muffins and flapjacks which I have always been happy for her to have...And I buy organic baby snacks, you like the little crisp things and rice cakes that claim "no junk" Not saying they're the healthiest option but better than biscuits or sweets yes?


The LOUDNESS and the AGGRESSION are really doing a number on me at the moment. I wish she would stop SCREAMING.

EXACTLY this. If I hear myself (or DH) say "stop screaming" one more time I'll go insane.

With the wanting other drinks, one rule we made was the "2 sugar foods/day" rule & that included juice/cordial etc & so I had a whole heap of pictures (I took photos) of the foods that were sugar foods & stuck them on magnets, then had a chart on the fridge & I'd put the pictures up in the chart when they had had the foods & that was it for the day.

This is a really good idea, I have tried "rationing" before but I think the pics could help her understand a lot better rather than me saying "no you've had a juice today already"

Not having junk in the house definitely helps, she knows she has to accept it if I say we haven't got any! However she's now cottoned on to "we need to buy some more xxx"  ::)

Bought fruit and frozen veg, made simple roast dinners, whole bread sandwiches with chicken or proper cheese for lunch, made lots of salads with fresh ingredients, bought proper butter, snacks were chocolate or baked crisps without artificial anything and the kids improved 100%

See this is generally what she has! She doesn't like potatoes (apart from chips ::)) though. Maybe it really is the squash that is causing such a problem... (FWIW she only has water at nursery and preschool and never kicks up a fuss, it's just with me and DH ::))

Yep I buy organic wherever I can and wash everything well. She actually loves cucumber, carrots, lots of fruit so that's good.

I think moderation is best. I had a friend who growing up wasn't allowed any junk food at home. She went the other way in high school and would sneak junk food, raid pantries when babysitting, etc. She has since calmed down and eats healthily/balanced but for a while it really threw her for a loop.

This is what my MIL always says! I totally agree re the moderation. Where squash is concerned I don't think moderation will be possible though, she's an all or nothing kid  ;)
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Offline deb

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2011, 14:10:51 pm »
Can you dilute the squash? When Josie was small I could take a half-gallon (abt 2 litres) bottle that used to hold juice, add maybe a cm of juice, and top with water. It had a little color and even less flavor, but it suited her, like when you get water at a restaurant with a slice of lemon for a touch of flavor. And squash, if I understand rightly (we don't call it that in the States, so I'm guessing at it, but it sounds thick and sweet and fruity), has plenty of room for dilution.

Offline Roseii

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2011, 14:15:52 pm »
Yes I always dilute it, it's a bottle of concentrated squash, I do like you say maybe 1/2cm then the rest water...
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Offline Mom to M&M

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2011, 15:36:15 pm »
These are the ingredients of the Robinson's fruit and barley orange squash - with no added sugar. Is that the one you use?

Ingredients
Water, Orange Juice from Concentrate (11%), Orange Fruit from Concentrate (4%), Refined Barley Flour (1%), Malic Acid, Citric Acid, Acidity Regulator (Sodium Citrate), Sweeteners (Aspartame, Saccharin), Preservatives (Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Metabisulphite), Flavouring, Antioxidant (Ascorbic Acid), Vitamins (Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, B6, B12), Colour (Beto-carotene).
Contains a Source of Phenylalanine.
Allergies Information
Contains Barley Flour, Sodium Metabisulphite & Phenylalanine

I'd say YUCK on the aspartame and saccharin! And some other very non-necessary stuff in there too. Can you switch her over to diluted juice (orange or apple or cranberry or whatever)? I find I only need to use 1-2 ounces juice with 6 ounces water and both kids drink it very happily - I use 100% fruit juice, no added sugar - usually organic brand. I used to juice my own but my juicer broke and I haven't replaced it yet! Otherwise DD only drinks water. DS also drinks water or I make him fruit smoothies out of a tiny bit of apple juice, lots of water, lots of fresh fruit (today's has blueberries, strawberries, banana and peach) and an avocado. I use one whole avocado for two days worth of smoothie and he LOVES it.
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Offline deb

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2011, 16:56:52 pm »
I'd avoid aspartame entirely. It's a known neurotoxin, and also can have behavioral side effects (as well as trigger migraines in sensitive individuals, like MSG).

I'd also bag the squash entirely, come to that. Agree with the diluted juice idea - it takes a while to get used to, but once they do, the squash will taste super-sweet.

Offline Mashi

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2011, 17:01:33 pm »
I realise that everyone here is a strong believer in what they are saying, and I think that is great :)  I am not trying to change anyone's ways with their children or saying you are wrong. But I also think that we need to be free to post disagreeing opinions :)

I personally think that a lot of things are found where you want them to be found.  Parents who are watching for food related behaviour changes will find them. Parents who are looking for other reasons for the behaviour will find it elsewhere. 

Here is an article I found interesting about the non-relationship between sugar and behaviour
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=52516

And yes, it is one study. And yes there are a hundred others that say the same and a hundred others that disagree with it.  I totally get that. I am just trying to open eyes up to other perspectives :)

We feed DS (and ourselves!!) as naturally as we can afford to (and by afford I mean financially but also time-wise and socially).  He is a TOTAL BEAR lately...he is nearly 3yo. Sorry to say, but lately he is a brat.  he has been unbearable this week, today I just told him to go away from me for the rest of the day because I did not want to be around him. He is a disrespectful, unreasonable, determined, headstrong three year old boy.  Here is what he ate today, and what is very typical of a normal day for him:

Bk: weetabix, semi skimmed milk, banana
Sn: frozen peas, organic carrots, organic rice cake (nothing but puffed rice)
L: blueberries, chicken (not deli meat, home cooked roasted chicken cooked in olive oil and fresh thyme), home-made sunflower seed whole grain bread (organic flour), edam cheese (organic), another rice cake, water
s: cherries, semi skimmed milk, and another slice of the bread above with organic butter
d: whole grain organic pasta with home-made bolognaise (minced beef, carrots, celery, mushroom, organic sieved tomatoes, organic beef stock, tomato paste, cornflour, basil, oregano), organic plain greek yogurt with cut up peaches and cherries

No colourings, not a lot of sugar (fruit only, nothing added into anything or hidden), as organic as possible, not a lot of chemicals or preservatives, and so on. And trust me, you didn't want to be around my kid today. This is a good representation of how he/we eat, and the past 3-4 months, he has been AWFUL.  I think that there is a certain amount of behaviour that parents need to accept is NOT about food!

I am NOT talking of kids with intolerances or allergies or issues.  I just mean the average.  Yes, when my DS ate green jello at DH's work he went crazy in a way that I have never seen.  When he eats the red he is fine. So there is no doubt in my mind that there is something in the green jello that sends him loopy.  But that to me is different.

Charli....for us, persnally, I do think that we wouldn't offer Robinsons  :-\ ...although at the same time I have to say that where my DH lives, if I ever said 'no we don't let him have cordial' around at a friend's house the room would stop and jaws would drop.  I don't make my parenting decisions based on what others think but I also have no reason (ie allergie, etc etc) to "forbid" something like that to an extreme. Food for us also has social connections and I know that if I were to say no it would set off an attitude of 'we are better than you' etc.  But that is us, that is our social circle and our choices. It is not something we buy here (but we did buy squash/cordial when we lived in England for DH and I) and if we could, then we would not have it in the house for DS. But next week I am sure he will be offered his share of it when we are at friends houses and so on. (Fruit Shoot anyone?! LOL) But that is because it is a special week, special occasion and because sometimes, for us, we sacrifice some things to not cause offence, kwim? I am not saying everyone should, but it is our choice to do so.

I think that in an average child who does not have any known intolerances, I think that food is a good scapegoat.  We are in a society where there is SO MUCH PRESSURE on parents to be so good at parenting. And if children are not behaving in a way that is desired then there is a tendancy for our society (teachers, doctors, social workers, carers, etc) to look for a reason why...a syndrome, an event, a cause, an underlying issue. Rather than when I was a kid, it was just accepted that KIDS ARE KIDS.  Kids misbehave, kids say mean things, kids do not always do as they are asked, kids fight, kids scream, and so on. There is not always a reason.

All I am saying is that personally, I would ditch the squash (but not that I think it is giving her any issues, I just don't like artificial sweeteners, I choose one with sugar over aspartame) but other than that she is not eating JUNK.  She is eating fruits and vegetables, meats, and your healthy home-made food.  :)   

I think with her behaviour, she's just a nearly-three-year old (sorry to say!!!!!!! :P :P)

Offline anna*

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2011, 17:04:13 pm »
Some kids seem to react to fructose, and that's a whole different can of worms, ie apple juice is way higher in fructose than OJ is.





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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2011, 17:32:30 pm »
Apple juice and grape juice are the two that send Josie especially around the bend. SUPER-high fructose in both - and EVERY juice "cocktail" that says "no added sugar" is instead "sweetened" by using one or both of those as the "base." :( I can always ALWAYS tell when someone else gave her a juice box. Spacy, weepy, more unfocused than usual, argumentative - EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. A juice box of apple juice has the juice of multiple apples without any of the actual fiber in the fruit, and a box of grape juice is like eating several bunches of grapes - I don't know too many people who can down 2-3 bunches of grapes without at least a tummy-ache.

Mashi, that's not a bad diet at all in most people's eyes, way healthier than the average diet of the kids my kids go to school with, if the contents of other kids' lunchboxes/school lunches is any indication LOL, but if I fed that to my kids, I'd be paying for it in spades the next day. The wheat and rice and dairy in there alone would have messed with Josie in particular, and Nat is also showing signs of reacting, although (thankfully) to a lesser extent. And I admit my kids are more sensitive than the average - I call them "canaries in the coal mine" when it comes to food - but if they were the only ones, there wouldn't be a million other parents like me out there looking for answers.

If I had a dollar for the parents and teachers who told me that I "just" needed to be stricter with my kid and otherwise "fix" my parenting when just adding probiotics to her diet started a change that her teachers remarked on the next day and the diet change even got comments from my mom (who was convinced that J was completely normal, even with the rages that resulted in kids getting hurt) - I wouldn't be looking for a job 'cause I'd have a lot more spare $! :D Thankfully, I DID learn different parenting strategies, every one of which was the OPPOSITE of "conventional" parenting wisdom (which is why I'm such a big fan of Alfie Kohn now :)), but now Josie can make it through a day in a busy classroom, when she couldn't even get through an HOUR before - and she's not the only one, not at all. I was looking for answers in a million different places, and nothing made a difference until we changed the DIET.

I think it was here on BW, I think a thread by Katt about how Leorah's behavior is impacted by artificial colors, that made me look that much harder at what other people were feeding my kids when I wasn't around. I believe it was Britain did the study on ADD and artificial colors and made the decision to ban them - but here they're ubiquitous. Even here in the States where schools who make the decision to ban junk food report higher test scores, fewer discipline problems, and fewer absences due to illness, we can't seem to get any changes in policies, because food is viewed as a non-issue when it comes to behavior and often even specific health problems. :-\

So yes, while some things are absolutely situational, many due to bad parenting, some just due to kids being kids, when a child is acting out even more than usual and a parent can't pin down a cause - the way cranky babies turn out to have ear infections and reflux and teething when the doctors say "it's only colic," and "babies cry" without looking for a reason and relief - then looking at diet is positively a legitimate consideration.

Thus endeth my disagreement with the disagreement. :)

Offline Katet

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2011, 22:21:27 pm »
Being someone who with a former research background ALWAYS looks for a reason. I've alway tried to keep the "sugar" foods & "junk" in the boys diet to what I think is a reasonable amount BUT they do have coca cola (well DS1) & Fanta (both) & all variety of "junk" in their diet & have (in hopefully) moderated amounts since they were toddlers.  I can say that apart from 3 occasions when Ds1 had night terrors (after being in bed at 10pm or later & having had Coca cola) I've never really been able to pin sugar /colourings down to an issue in the same way I can with dairy for him. That maybe because I know I have a dairy threshold & we both just start to feel yuck & lathargic.
For both my boys I'd say their diet is no where near as good & 'clean' as many BW's children, they eat white bread, processed crackers, cookies etc (but they do have home grown veg - the little that they eat LOL)

Last week were were driving back from my sisters (3.5hour trip) for a number of reasons we actually drove through without really stopping (5mins in the car for me to talk to DH on the phone). In that time my boys had a "junk fest"... had about 50g of chocolate, red frogs & green/red/blue/orange snakes, (both jelly based confectionary) crisps AND fizzy drink... oh & just for good measure an apple each ;). They got a bit ratty in the last 30mins BUT They had been in the car for 3.5hours & they were impatient to see Daddy who'd been away & we were meeting him later that afternoon. They weren't running around like mad children when they got home, infact DS2 went straight to his favourite place (computer) & DS1 helped me unpack.

Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never really been able to see a link between what my boys eat & their behaviour... infact more so DH & I can see a link between DS1 not eating & his behaviour, if he is hungry then he is grumpy & close to/in tears. He certainly is like my sister & needs to eat regularly.
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline deb

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2011, 22:58:46 pm »
Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never really been able to see a link between what my boys eat & their behaviour... infact more so DH & I can see a link between DS1 not eating & his behaviour, if he is hungry then he is grumpy & close to/in tears. He certainly is like my sister & needs to eat regularly.

So really it's a different connection between food and behavior - and most of us would feel pretty "off" if we went too long between meals, but some more so than others. And for us it also seems to matter a LOT what we had for the last meal before a long break. I see this with my girls and their lunchtimes at school: Nat's lunch was at 11:30AM, and then a snack (meaning "whatever someone's mom brought for the class that didn't have nuts in it" so anything from carrot sticks to red popsicles ::)) before they came home; depending on her snack that day, if it wasn't enough real food, she would be weepy by the time she got home at 4PMish and need to eat 15 minutes ago. Josie's lunch wasn't till 1PM, and she and her class were ravenous by then (go figure ::)) so depending on what she'd had for breakfast she could cope better than many of her classmates.

I think each person has his/her own reactions to so many different foods and other environmental triggers, so one really can't say "all kids" do or don't react to [sugar/wheat/dairy/food colorings/other] - but because some DO, it's always worth considering. A study that scientifically discounts a relationship between behavior and sugar in their study set still doesn't completely discount anecdotal evidence from parents who took that stuff out of their kids' diets and saw immediate positive changes, although it does certainly validate parents' perceptions coloring their impressions, and that's worth thinking about for sure. I'm fairly sure the mother of my clarinet student is so used to her DD being so out of it after 9 years or so, but I see marked differences from one lesson to the next depending on what she had for supper that day, and I actually had to request that another student please not have caffeine between noon and AFTER her music lesson as it got her so wired and we'd get almost nothing done the whole time she was here. We're all familiar with the way typical metabolisms and bodies react to alcohol and to caffeine, so I guess to me it's not so strange to think that other things in food, natural and otherwise, could also trigger metabolic and chemical issues that would affect mood and/or behavior.

Offline Mortish

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2011, 00:43:53 am »
I agree with what you guys are saying in regard to behaviour and diet - different things definitely affect children in different way.

But in our case I have to say I really noticed a HUGE difference in my girls behaviour when I cut the sugar back....so I guess that is the trigger in my girls behaviour without a doubt.....and I am glad I finally recognised it because I was starting to lose the plot:)

Offline Mashi

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2011, 06:09:54 am »
Mashi, that's not a bad diet at all in most people's eyes, way healthier than the average diet of the kids my kids go to school with, if the contents of other kids' lunchboxes/school lunches is any indication LOL, but if I fed that to my kids, I'd be paying for it in spades the next day.

Actually, it is a great diet.  He eats very well. Normally there are many more vegetables but yesterday we needed rid of the fruit.  Treats and sweets are a part of his life and he enjoys them in a healthy moderation.  I realise that your children could not eat the way he does Deb but I am not talking about your children - my son has no wheat, rice, dairy or gain issues, and I am referring to him, not to children with special or different dietary needs.  

Please remember that I did not in any way say that 'bad parenting' is a factor, not in regards to myself, to Charli's DDs or to any other children.  I think that my husband and I are great parents, although we make mistakes sometimes, we are still great parents in our eyes. And there are days when my son is unbearable - and it is certainly 100% not food related for him.  

Of course, as I said he has issues with a green jello that he often is offered when he does to DH's school, and so obviously I am not saying that there are no issues with food dyes and such.  I am highly allergic to tartrazine and although it does not affect my behaviour in any way, I do break out in head-to-toe hives and rashes.  But in general, when eating an overall healthy diet, when there are no food intolerances, a child who is eating a healthy balanced diet of whole, fresh, unprocessed foods as Charli is offering, a sweet treat is not going to send the kids around the bend.   :)

And defintitely, Steffi has shown a great example of what can happen when it is not an issue of sugar or food intolerances, but rather just from years of all-around unhealthiness.  Their bodies must have just felt awful, trying to process all of the salt, fat, lack of fresh produce and vitamins :(  And they probably did not ever consciously realise it, and most people do not.  But also the types of foods Steffi is feeding them now includes (as she listed) things like grains (which would be a large variety of them in the various German breads, not just wheat), cheeses and other dairy (I assume lots of quark) and some treats like chocolate.  Probably pretty much how we eat here too :)   So sure, once again yes there is a relationship, of course there is  - I just don't think that Charli's DDs are eating like that, is what I am trying to say! 

« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 06:18:30 am by Mashi »

Offline Shdef

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2011, 08:01:05 am »
And defintitely, Steffi has shown a great example of what can happen when it is not an issue of sugar or food intolerances, but rather just from years of all-around unhealthiness.  Their bodies must have just felt awful, trying to process all of the salt, fat, lack of fresh produce and vitamins :( 

It really was an awful diet, the kids' mum did not do very well with feeding them. Sam had a Pot Noodle for dinner for THREE YEARS :o when he was little.

And they are not really allergic or intolerant to anything much and do get their treats in moderation (they are pretty much adults now) and watch out themselves to eat healthily.


Offline Duckie

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2011, 09:41:47 am »
Steffi, I remember when you first started caring for Sam and Jenn and I'm just so happy they are thriving in your care. Jenn seems like a hoot (and wicked smart) and from what you've said about Sam, he's really flourishing!

Well done - all of you!
Mother Duck to A (June/01), J (April/06), my sleeping S (2/Dec/03) and my nameless angels (1/July/04; 2/Nov/04; 13/July/05)

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2011, 10:44:20 am »
Please remember that I did not in any way say that 'bad parenting' is a factor, not in regards to myself, to Charli's DDs or to any other children.  I think that my husband and I are great parents, although we make mistakes sometimes, we are still great parents in our eyes. And there are days when my son is unbearable - and it is certainly 100% not food related for him. 

I didn't say you did. As  I mentioned, I can only report my own experiences. And wow, have I got a LOT of those. :(

BTW, that article you referenced was from 2004, and there has been a LOT of new research since then. There are some statements in there that are flat-out WRONG. "The only way to know for sure if a child has a food allergy is to see a doctor for a skin or blood allergy test." - wrong - those tests aren't 100% accurate, so you can get a result and still not be able to trust it. "'the problem with the Feingold diet is you can't keep a child on it because it eliminates things kids really like.'" - sure you can! We did it, don't tell me I "can't." ::) They address out-and-out food allergies but not intolerances at all, instead going from either it being a food allergy or ADHD with no other factors considered like intolerances or allergic reactions that don't include wheezing or eczema. New food additives are being used since then that haven't been fully tested except by the companies who make them (here in the States the FDA allows companies to provide their own safety studies, and there is very little independent research on them because funding is hard to come by). We know more than we did then, so while the idea that parents' perceptions of their kids' behavior is important, I have a LOT of issues with what the article says. :(

Between my kids' reactions, my experiences as a teacher, my friends' experiences with horrible food allergy situations in one of her kids, and the reading I've done, I can only say that there's definitely a link for a lot of kids. It's literally what's turned me into such a crazy foodie. LOL If the information is primarily anecdotal rather than scientifically studied because someone hasn't yet released a study, then it is, but more and more research is being released that definitively shows connections between diet and behavior for more than just a few kids here and there.

And then I would just re-emphasize what I wrote in my most recent post on this thread anyway except I'm going up for more coffee since it's not yet 7AM here. LOL

I'm going to have the rest of my coffee now and hope that all made some sort of sense. :D

Offline Shdef

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2011, 12:59:07 pm »
Steffi, I remember when you first started caring for Sam and Jenn and I'm just so happy they are thriving in your care. Jenn seems like a hoot (and wicked smart) and from what you've said about Sam, he's really flourishing!

Well done - all of you!


They are AWESOME kids, we are so proud. They are smart, good-looking and confident for the most part (both have some issues, but who doesn't) and they are doing so well :)

As to the whole food-behaviour issue, of course there is one, but it is different for each child. I don't find the diet of Charli's daughters necessarily to be a cause of the issues, it does seem nicely balanced and many kids get squash in the UK and are perfectly fine. It might be, but might not  :-\

Then for other kids, the link is plain obvious, like with Deb's kids and well, seen as this thread is about kids reacting behaviourally to food, her input is on-topic and interesting, just as much as the input of parents whose kids do not react at all :)

Offline my3girlsjde

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2011, 13:38:01 pm »
Wow, glad I found this thread as we're now withholding milk from the twins' diet for two weeks to see if we see anything new. Granted we're also getting possible sleep apnea checked out which would explain A LOT but there's always been something 'up' with them. They were MPI and reflux babies so it wouldn't be completely out there if they were still having a hard time processing milk. Ice cream I've seen the most introverted and shy spiriteds in a room full of hundreds of strangers completely melt down publicly and become human bouncing balls. This is definitely not their public behaviour. HOWEVER, there are a lot of ingredients in ice cream and although they had different flavours, there are a lot of common ingredients they both had. So we're going to give it a two week trial just to see.

E is severely MSPI. We thought allergic but the one test came back negative. MSPI to the point of hives, wheezing and blood in her stool. So there's a genetic possibility of the twins still being MPI.

I do put a lot of faith that behaviour can be changed due to food additives, colourings and chemicals. Our bodies simply weren't designed to process them. That being said, we eat processed food as it simply fits into my food budget of three children on a single income. We try to make as much from scratch as we can, but there's still a lot here with additives and colourings and chemicals.

I do see a difference in my girls when they've had a sugary treat, but all of those sugary treats have colourings. They have to have a dozen homemade cookies to really go 'off' the way they do after eating a sucker. And it's still nothing compared to how they were after having an ice cream last weekend. But there were other things that could have been at play. They were out for a few hours, they were a little on the tired side, lots of stimulation and they were starving by the time they got their ice cream. Then I asked them to wait in a line with me. So this is the sociology analytical research design professor's voice in the back of my mind. Unless you can remove all other factors beyond a reasonable doubt, you'll never know. That's one of my reasons for going a full two weeks without milk. If they don't have milk today, they may not have cereal, sugary oatmeal, pancakes, x, y, or z either. Over a course of two weeks, chances are they'll have all of the other foods that may be causing issue. And the other reason for two weeks with no milk is it really does take a long time to get out of the system.

My cousin was treated for ADHD for a number of years with no success. It involved medication increases, suggestions to my aunt and uncle for parenting classes and no doubt a lot of stress. Then they found out he had an intolerance to red food dye. Within a few weeks he was a new kid. Then my uncle tried going off of it and found similar results.

I watched a special where children of parents who work in the sugar cane fields ate the unprocessed sugar cane. The kids weren't hyper. They weren't genetically predisposed to be able to tolerate sugar any more than any other child. I don't think there's anything wrong with good old fashioned sugar in food used in moderation as it's proven to lead to obesity and you shouldn't have too much of one thing. But man-made chemicals are completely different. If i had the ability to remove them from my house and not become instantly poor I would. I DO think they're bad for you. I could go on for hours on how the incidence of food intolerances, behavioural disorders and obesity have been sharply on the rise since our method of obtaining raw food and processing it has changed so much in the last century. I think they're related. Food simply isn't made the way it used to be. Granted more people can be fed for cheaper but the side effects are how we're paying for our progress.

Again, I could go on for hours.......................
Vicki - nursing student and proud mother to three refluxers in two years





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Offline EllenS

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2011, 16:47:10 pm »
I think the summary is, kids go through difficult periods for all sorts of reasons, sometimes developmental, sometimes because we need to adjust our parenting, and sometimes because of external factors like sleep or food. 

This is why BW philosophy is so helpful, it's about observing our children as individuals, being proactive, noticing patterns, and being intentional about our parenting in a way that meets their needs.  There are universal principles but no "one-size fits all".
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Offline deb

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2011, 16:54:13 pm »
That's neat about the raw sugar cane. We can get it here in many ethnic groceries. :) And really, the difference between chewing on raw sugar cane and having sugar in, say, a sugary drink is similar to the difference between eating a handful of grapes or an apple and drinking a cup of juice (containing the fructose of a LOT more fruit). I forget how much dissolved sugar/HFCS is in a 12-ounce can of soda pop, but it's a LOT, like a staggering amount, and many people drink more than 2 or 3 a day (like my 12YO student I had to ask to refrain from caffeine before her lessons - she takes it in the form of Coca-Cola and Doctor Pepper :X).

A lot of sugar in the States (don't know about other countries) is actually grown from sugar beets, many of which are also GMO, and unless the box is labeled "pure cane sugar" (which many of them are), you don't know for sure what you're getting either in the box/bag (if you're making from scratch) or in premade processed sweets (where the sugar is just labeled "sugar"). (It's the beet growers and cane growers who are the industry leaders behind the push against high fructose corn syrup getting off scot-free on calling their product "identical" to sugar. :evil grin:)

EllenS posted while I was typing. Totally true. :)

Offline We Three

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2011, 17:19:41 pm »
I just want to add also that my dd has NEVER displayed a reaction to a particular food with regard to behaviors.  She is textbook all the way, no mood swings, no real issues to speak of....some sensory stuff but that is just "her" and has been there since birth! 

BUT....she is dye-free, we keep her simple sugar low, we feed her whole foods as much as possible, and things like caffeine and artificial sweeteners don't even enter the equation.

 It is not at all hard (for us) to avoid dyes....the biggest culprits are breakfast cereal and candy. At birthday parties, we scrape off the frosting if it is colored, and it is not a big deal to us (or to dd!).  We hardly give it a thought. It is OTHER people who think we are depriving our daughter. But she eats ice cream, occasional cookies (I prefer to make them or we get them from a local farm market). My point is, we don't have any behavioral issues at all, we are just parents who wish to avoid that stuff.

 Is there a link between her mild-mannered behavior and the fact that she doesn't eat alot of processed stuff? Hmm.  Likely won't know that unless she makes different choices when she is older. Time will tell I guess.

 Fascinating readin as always though. Just wanted to offer that perspective. We avoid becayuse of our own beliefs, not because of any behavioral issues or reactions. 

Offline Roseii

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2011, 17:07:53 pm »
Just wanted to say I am reading all this-v interesting and enlightening! Just don't have time to respond properly yet. I'm v grateful for all the input x
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Offline my3girlsjde

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2011, 00:39:29 am »
Well here's one for the sugar question:

I walked in to the kitchen this morning after changing E's diaper to see the girls taking turns chugging the remains of the pancake syrup bottle :o. They had managed to somehow between the two of them to polish off about an inch of liquid sugar. I had visions of them bouncing off of the ceiling, and I quickly dressed them to go for a walk expecting the worst. Nothing happened. If anything they were a bit tired during our 1km walk to the store.

So positive - I know it's not the sugar that causes them to morph into little monsters. My guess is the colourings/additives that do it. We've had them off of milk for four days now, and zero change. But we're going to keep them off for a full two weeks to make sure.
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Offline Katet

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2011, 03:46:55 am »
Something occured to me today, when all the parents at soccer were comment how they were glad the game was on as they have much more pleasant Saturdays when their children play soccer.  If you compare children now to how they were 20 -40 years ago, well less exercise is a huge thing in the changes . Even soccer games are shorter & smaller fields etc.

While I think food can be a factor for some (maybe all) children,  I also think that the lack of "active" exercise & fresh air is also a factor. Ideally a 3yo should get about 3hours of active physical play - walking, running, climbing, jumping etc.

Over the last week we have had 3 days that have been 'PJ days' (lazy stay at home days) , my boys needed them & enjoyed them & on those days they probably only played outside for 2 hours (they are on School Holidays) , but at the end of the 3rd they were getting testy... the last 3 days they have been more active & today they played soccer, just had lunch & biting at the bit to go out & play golf... the thing about the last 3 days is their moods have been great, not that we have any major issues as a general rule, but just they are in great moods. Also I've noticed that when things get a bit tense around here I can actually send them out for 5-10 laps of the back yard (about 50m/lap) & I get more 'rational' children who come back inside.
I do think often when children aren't being 'calm' is can be because they actually need to blow of steam & get the blood flowing... certainly I know when I don't get my 3-4 days/week exercise in, I am moodier & not as happy.
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline Mashi

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2011, 05:23:40 am »
Kate even at 3yo I notice that in my DS. I don't think he will be as great of an athlete as yours are but he does/will love doing sports as much as they do!  We absolutely have an indoor/outdoor corelation with his behaviour!

Offline Shiv52

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2011, 08:10:28 am »
Absolutely Kate! Thats a great point. On days when we are indoors all day M's behaviour can be awful. I notice a bigger correlation between getting out/exercise and behaviour than diet for sure.

Funny thats been in the news all week here in the UK....that under 5s should have at least 3 hours of active exercise every day and I was really surprised that they would need to make such a recommendation at all because M never sits still in the house let alone out and about. But we went to a family fun day during the week and I was surprised at the number of 3/4 YOs in buggies with their juice and crisps and they stayed there the whole afternoon whereas M was walking and running the whole time.

I guess it can come down to what we know works...good diet with treats in moderation, plenty of exercise and enough sleep. And unless we see a particular pattern with a food then challenging days at more likely to be related to other things like sleep or developmental leaps etc. 





Offline Katet

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2011, 10:33:59 am »
Kate even at 3yo I notice that in my DS. I don't think he will be as great of an athlete as yours are but he does/will love doing sports as much as they do!  We absolutely have an indoor/outdoor corelation with his behaviour!

Mashi at 3 neither of mine had that much 'ability' & while I do think DS2 probably fits the 'gifted athlete' in the natural sportsman type, DS1 is more the 'hard yards - determination' type (as seen when he played an extra half game up an age-group for the 9's because they were short a player), & if passion counts for anything then one day he could play cricket for Australia, but I'm not sure he has the natural ability & sadly I think DS2 may have the ability, but may well lack the drive & determination.
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline Roseii

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Re: Diet and behaviour?
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2011, 11:31:29 am »
Hoping to reply properly later today but just a small update: took DD1 to the shop yesterday and let her choose some "real" fruit juices (ie the refridgerated ones with just 100% fruit and some absorbic acid) She chose apple, pineapple and orange & mango...She seems happy with them so far (I am diluting them but not too much as they don't taste good watered down) and I have told DH the Robinsons is hidden in the larder for when/if he wants it!
x
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