Diet and behaviour?

[Shdef]

I was just about to log off when I saw this post. I will ABSOLUTELY be back.

short answer: YES YES YES!!!!

This. Sam and Jenn grew up in the UK and seriously most of their diet was junk. White bread, processed cheese, Robinson's diluting, cereal with artificial colours like fruit loops, crisps and pot noodle or frozen pizza for dinner, turkey twizzlers and lunchtables for lunch at school.

Jenn had awful eczema, could not attend school a lot and Sam was seriously hyperactive and very annoying 


So... then I came  born and bread East German, not very adventurous with food, but no junk at all.

Bought fruit and frozen veg, made simple roast dinners, whole bread sandwiches with chicken or proper cheese for lunch, made lots of salads with fresh ingredients, bought proper butter, snacks were chocolate or baked crisps without artificial anything and the kids improved 100%

Sam has never been hyperactive again and Jennifer's eczema went from bleeding open to non-existent.

This artificial stuff just is not good for us. I am not saying buy everything organic or grow your own veg, but replace whatever you have with healthier versions.

Rice crispies with oats and honey, ribena or robinsons with whole juice diluted with water (same price) organic yoghurt with blended frozen fruit and some sugar (cheap). Cucumer and blueberries are fine, just wash them thoroughly.

Some kids react to dairy or wheat, but behavioral reactions to that are rare.

[Mom to M&M]

ITA with a lot of what Steffi, Deb and others have said, BUT I disagree that behavioral reactions to dairy or wheat are rare. With dairy in particular I've seen quite a few behavioral reactions. One of my best friends has two sons who are dairy intolerant. One gets physical symptoms like congestion but the other gets much more hyper, anxious and "mean" when he has dairy. My daughter not only gets constipated from too much dairy (small amounts are fine) but gets unfocused and has a hard time paying attention/listening if she has too much. And this is with artificial sweeteners and too much junk in her/our diets at all. She also reacts to too much chocolate (gets cranky and "mean" and reflux flares). My son gets too many loose stools and gets congested from dairy but his behavior also suffers - he becomes clingy and hyper as well.

Like many have said, barring true allergies or severe reactions, I think moderation is best. I had a friend who growing up wasn't allowed any junk food at home. She went the other way in high school and would sneak junk food, raid pantries when babysitting, etc. She has since calmed down and eats healthily/balanced but for a while it really threw her for a loop.

[Katet]

Dairy is the big one we have reactions to here with DS1, too much dairy (funnily not including icecream) definitely makes him more moody & grumpy - often because he gets constipated!

[Roseii]

Deb thanks for that link-I keep meaning to give my girls probiotics, initially thinking more of DD2 as she has tummy troubles anyway (DD1 never has) Now I know I need to!!

Amy I like the special water bottle idea...going to try that.

This whole sugar/sweetener/colourings thing is such a minefield to me  As far as I know she doesn't have a lot but then I don't even know what's in Robinson's fruit and barley...She almost never has "sweets" and something like chocolate is a rare treat. I make my own muffins and flapjacks which I have always been happy for her to have...And I buy organic baby snacks, you like the little crisp things and rice cakes that claim "no junk" Not saying they're the healthiest option but better than biscuits or sweets yes?

The LOUDNESS and the AGGRESSION are really doing a number on me at the moment. I wish she would stop SCREAMING.

EXACTLY this. If I hear myself (or DH) say "stop screaming" one more time I'll go insane.

With the wanting other drinks, one rule we made was the "2 sugar foods/day" rule & that included juice/cordial etc & so I had a whole heap of pictures (I took photos) of the foods that were sugar foods & stuck them on magnets, then had a chart on the fridge & I'd put the pictures up in the chart when they had had the foods & that was it for the day.

This is a really good idea, I have tried "rationing" before but I think the pics could help her understand a lot better rather than me saying "no you've had a juice today already"

Not having junk in the house definitely helps, she knows she has to accept it if I say we haven't got any! However she's now cottoned on to "we need to buy some more xxx" 

Bought fruit and frozen veg, made simple roast dinners, whole bread sandwiches with chicken or proper cheese for lunch, made lots of salads with fresh ingredients, bought proper butter, snacks were chocolate or baked crisps without artificial anything and the kids improved 100%

See this is generally what she has! She doesn't like potatoes (apart from chips ) though. Maybe it really is the squash that is causing such a problem... (FWIW she only has water at nursery and preschool and never kicks up a fuss, it's just with me and DH )

Yep I buy organic wherever I can and wash everything well. She actually loves cucumber, carrots, lots of fruit so that's good.

I think moderation is best. I had a friend who growing up wasn't allowed any junk food at home. She went the other way in high school and would sneak junk food, raid pantries when babysitting, etc. She has since calmed down and eats healthily/balanced but for a while it really threw her for a loop.

This is what my MIL always says! I totally agree re the moderation. Where squash is concerned I don't think moderation will be possible though, she's an all or nothing kid 

[deb]

Can you dilute the squash? When Josie was small I could take a half-gallon (abt 2 litres) bottle that used to hold juice, add maybe a cm of juice, and top with water. It had a little color and even less flavor, but it suited her, like when you get water at a restaurant with a slice of lemon for a touch of flavor. And squash, if I understand rightly (we don't call it that in the States, so I'm guessing at it, but it sounds thick and sweet and fruity), has plenty of room for dilution.

[Roseii]

Yes I always dilute it, it's a bottle of concentrated squash, I do like you say maybe 1/2cm then the rest water...

[Mom to M&M]

These are the ingredients of the Robinson's fruit and barley orange squash - with no added sugar. Is that the one you use?

Ingredients
Water, Orange Juice from Concentrate (11%), Orange Fruit from Concentrate (4%), Refined Barley Flour (1%), Malic Acid, Citric Acid, Acidity Regulator (Sodium Citrate), Sweeteners (Aspartame, Saccharin), Preservatives (Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Metabisulphite), Flavouring, Antioxidant (Ascorbic Acid), Vitamins (Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, B6, B12), Colour (Beto-carotene).
Contains a Source of Phenylalanine.
Allergies Information
Contains Barley Flour, Sodium Metabisulphite & Phenylalanine

I'd say YUCK on the aspartame and saccharin! And some other very non-necessary stuff in there too. Can you switch her over to diluted juice (orange or apple or cranberry or whatever)? I find I only need to use 1-2 ounces juice with 6 ounces water and both kids drink it very happily - I use 100% fruit juice, no added sugar - usually organic brand. I used to juice my own but my juicer broke and I haven't replaced it yet! Otherwise DD only drinks water. DS also drinks water or I make him fruit smoothies out of a tiny bit of apple juice, lots of water, lots of fresh fruit (today's has blueberries, strawberries, banana and peach) and an avocado. I use one whole avocado for two days worth of smoothie and he LOVES it.

[deb]

I'd avoid aspartame entirely. It's a known neurotoxin, and also can have behavioral side effects (as well as trigger migraines in sensitive individuals, like MSG).

I'd also bag the squash entirely, come to that. Agree with the diluted juice idea - it takes a while to get used to, but once they do, the squash will taste super-sweet.

[Mashi]

I realise that everyone here is a strong believer in what they are saying, and I think that is great   I am not trying to change anyone's ways with their children or saying you are wrong. But I also think that we need to be free to post disagreeing opinions

I personally think that a lot of things are found where you want them to be found.  Parents who are watching for food related behaviour changes will find them. Parents who are looking for other reasons for the behaviour will find it elsewhere. 

Here is an article I found interesting about the non-relationship between sugar and behaviour
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=52516

And yes, it is one study. And yes there are a hundred others that say the same and a hundred others that disagree with it.  I totally get that. I am just trying to open eyes up to other perspectives

We feed DS (and ourselves!!) as naturally as we can afford to (and by afford I mean financially but also time-wise and socially).  He is a TOTAL BEAR lately...he is nearly 3yo. Sorry to say, but lately he is a brat.  he has been unbearable this week, today I just told him to go away from me for the rest of the day because I did not want to be around him. He is a disrespectful, unreasonable, determined, headstrong three year old boy.  Here is what he ate today, and what is very typical of a normal day for him:

Bk: weetabix, semi skimmed milk, banana
Sn: frozen peas, organic carrots, organic rice cake (nothing but puffed rice)
L: blueberries, chicken (not deli meat, home cooked roasted chicken cooked in olive oil and fresh thyme), home-made sunflower seed whole grain bread (organic flour), edam cheese (organic), another rice cake, water
s: cherries, semi skimmed milk, and another slice of the bread above with organic butter
d: whole grain organic pasta with home-made bolognaise (minced beef, carrots, celery, mushroom, organic sieved tomatoes, organic beef stock, tomato paste, cornflour, basil, oregano), organic plain greek yogurt with cut up peaches and cherries

No colourings, not a lot of sugar (fruit only, nothing added into anything or hidden), as organic as possible, not a lot of chemicals or preservatives, and so on. And trust me, you didn't want to be around my kid today. This is a good representation of how he/we eat, and the past 3-4 months, he has been AWFUL.  I think that there is a certain amount of behaviour that parents need to accept is NOT about food!

I am NOT talking of kids with intolerances or allergies or issues.  I just mean the average.  Yes, when my DS ate green jello at DH's work he went crazy in a way that I have never seen.  When he eats the red he is fine. So there is no doubt in my mind that there is something in the green jello that sends him loopy.  But that to me is different.

Charli....for us, persnally, I do think that we wouldn't offer Robinsons  ...although at the same time I have to say that where my DH lives, if I ever said 'no we don't let him have cordial' around at a friend's house the room would stop and jaws would drop.  I don't make my parenting decisions based on what others think but I also have no reason (ie allergie, etc etc) to "forbid" something like that to an extreme. Food for us also has social connections and I know that if I were to say no it would set off an attitude of 'we are better than you' etc.  But that is us, that is our social circle and our choices. It is not something we buy here (but we did buy squash/cordial when we lived in England for DH and I) and if we could, then we would not have it in the house for DS. But next week I am sure he will be offered his share of it when we are at friends houses and so on. (Fruit Shoot anyone?! LOL) But that is because it is a special week, special occasion and because sometimes, for us, we sacrifice some things to not cause offence, kwim? I am not saying everyone should, but it is our choice to do so.

I think that in an average child who does not have any known intolerances, I think that food is a good scapegoat.  We are in a society where there is SO MUCH PRESSURE on parents to be so good at parenting. And if children are not behaving in a way that is desired then there is a tendancy for our society (teachers, doctors, social workers, carers, etc) to look for a reason why...a syndrome, an event, a cause, an underlying issue. Rather than when I was a kid, it was just accepted that KIDS ARE KIDS.  Kids misbehave, kids say mean things, kids do not always do as they are asked, kids fight, kids scream, and so on. There is not always a reason.

All I am saying is that personally, I would ditch the squash (but not that I think it is giving her any issues, I just don't like artificial sweeteners, I choose one with sugar over aspartame) but other than that she is not eating JUNK.  She is eating fruits and vegetables, meats, and your healthy home-made food.     

I think with her behaviour, she's just a nearly-three-year old (sorry to say!!!!!!! )

[anna*]

Some kids seem to react to fructose, and that's a whole different can of worms, ie apple juice is way higher in fructose than OJ is.

[deb]

Apple juice and grape juice are the two that send Josie especially around the bend. SUPER-high fructose in both - and EVERY juice "cocktail" that says "no added sugar" is instead "sweetened" by using one or both of those as the "base." I can always ALWAYS tell when someone else gave her a juice box. Spacy, weepy, more unfocused than usual, argumentative - EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. A juice box of apple juice has the juice of multiple apples without any of the actual fiber in the fruit, and a box of grape juice is like eating several bunches of grapes - I don't know too many people who can down 2-3 bunches of grapes without at least a tummy-ache.

Mashi, that's not a bad diet at all in most people's eyes, way healthier than the average diet of the kids my kids go to school with, if the contents of other kids' lunchboxes/school lunches is any indication LOL, but if I fed that to my kids, I'd be paying for it in spades the next day. The wheat and rice and dairy in there alone would have messed with Josie in particular, and Nat is also showing signs of reacting, although (thankfully) to a lesser extent. And I admit my kids are more sensitive than the average - I call them "canaries in the coal mine" when it comes to food - but if they were the only ones, there wouldn't be a million other parents like me out there looking for answers.

If I had a dollar for the parents and teachers who told me that I "just" needed to be stricter with my kid and otherwise "fix" my parenting when just adding probiotics to her diet started a change that her teachers remarked on the next day and the diet change even got comments from my mom (who was convinced that J was completely normal, even with the rages that resulted in kids getting hurt) - I wouldn't be looking for a job 'cause I'd have a lot more spare $! Thankfully, I DID learn different parenting strategies, every one of which was the OPPOSITE of "conventional" parenting wisdom (which is why I'm such a big fan of Alfie Kohn now , but now Josie can make it through a day in a busy classroom, when she couldn't even get through an HOUR before - and she's not the only one, not at all. I was looking for answers in a million different places, and nothing made a difference until we changed the DIET.

I think it was here on BW, I think a thread by Katt about how Leorah's behavior is impacted by artificial colors, that made me look that much harder at what other people were feeding my kids when I wasn't around. I believe it was Britain did the study on ADD and artificial colors and made the decision to ban them - but here they're ubiquitous. Even here in the States where schools who make the decision to ban junk food report higher test scores, fewer discipline problems, and fewer absences due to illness, we can't seem to get any changes in policies, because food is viewed as a non-issue when it comes to behavior and often even specific health problems.

So yes, while some things are absolutely situational, many due to bad parenting, some just due to kids being kids, when a child is acting out even more than usual and a parent can't pin down a cause - the way cranky babies turn out to have ear infections and reflux and teething when the doctors say "it's only colic," and "babies cry" without looking for a reason and relief - then looking at diet is positively a legitimate consideration.

Thus endeth my disagreement with the disagreement.

[Katet]

Being someone who with a former research background ALWAYS looks for a reason. I've alway tried to keep the "sugar" foods & "junk" in the boys diet to what I think is a reasonable amount BUT they do have coca cola (well DS1) & Fanta (both) & all variety of "junk" in their diet & have (in hopefully) moderated amounts since they were toddlers.  I can say that apart from 3 occasions when Ds1 had night terrors (after being in bed at 10pm or later & having had Coca cola) I've never really been able to pin sugar /colourings down to an issue in the same way I can with dairy for him. That maybe because I know I have a dairy threshold & we both just start to feel yuck & lathargic.
For both my boys I'd say their diet is no where near as good & 'clean' as many BW's children, they eat white bread, processed crackers, cookies etc (but they do have home grown veg - the little that they eat LOL)

Last week were were driving back from my sisters (3.5hour trip) for a number of reasons we actually drove through without really stopping (5mins in the car for me to talk to DH on the phone). In that time my boys had a "junk fest"... had about 50g of chocolate, red frogs & green/red/blue/orange snakes, (both jelly based confectionary) crisps AND fizzy drink... oh & just for good measure an apple each . They got a bit ratty in the last 30mins BUT They had been in the car for 3.5hours & they were impatient to see Daddy who'd been away & we were meeting him later that afternoon. They weren't running around like mad children when they got home, infact DS2 went straight to his favourite place (computer) & DS1 helped me unpack.

Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never really been able to see a link between what my boys eat & their behaviour... infact more so DH & I can see a link between DS1 not eating & his behaviour, if he is hungry then he is grumpy & close to/in tears. He certainly is like my sister & needs to eat regularly.

[deb]

Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never really been able to see a link between what my boys eat & their behaviour... infact more so DH & I can see a link between DS1 not eating & his behaviour, if he is hungry then he is grumpy & close to/in tears. He certainly is like my sister & needs to eat regularly.

So really it's a different connection between food and behavior - and most of us would feel pretty "off" if we went too long between meals, but some more so than others. And for us it also seems to matter a LOT what we had for the last meal before a long break. I see this with my girls and their lunchtimes at school: Nat's lunch was at 11:30AM, and then a snack (meaning "whatever someone's mom brought for the class that didn't have nuts in it" so anything from carrot sticks to red popsicles ) before they came home; depending on her snack that day, if it wasn't enough real food, she would be weepy by the time she got home at 4PMish and need to eat 15 minutes ago. Josie's lunch wasn't till 1PM, and she and her class were ravenous by then (go figure ) so depending on what she'd had for breakfast she could cope better than many of her classmates.

I think each person has his/her own reactions to so many different foods and other environmental triggers, so one really can't say "all kids" do or don't react to [sugar/wheat/dairy/food colorings/other] - but because some DO, it's always worth considering. A study that scientifically discounts a relationship between behavior and sugar in their study set still doesn't completely discount anecdotal evidence from parents who took that stuff out of their kids' diets and saw immediate positive changes, although it does certainly validate parents' perceptions coloring their impressions, and that's worth thinking about for sure. I'm fairly sure the mother of my clarinet student is so used to her DD being so out of it after 9 years or so, but I see marked differences from one lesson to the next depending on what she had for supper that day, and I actually had to request that another student please not have caffeine between noon and AFTER her music lesson as it got her so wired and we'd get almost nothing done the whole time she was here. We're all familiar with the way typical metabolisms and bodies react to alcohol and to caffeine, so I guess to me it's not so strange to think that other things in food, natural and otherwise, could also trigger metabolic and chemical issues that would affect mood and/or behavior.

[Mortish]

I agree with what you guys are saying in regard to behaviour and diet - different things definitely affect children in different way.

But in our case I have to say I really noticed a HUGE difference in my girls behaviour when I cut the sugar back....so I guess that is the trigger in my girls behaviour without a doubt.....and I am glad I finally recognised it because I was starting to lose the plot:)

[Mashi]

Mashi, that's not a bad diet at all in most people's eyes, way healthier than the average diet of the kids my kids go to school with, if the contents of other kids' lunchboxes/school lunches is any indication LOL, but if I fed that to my kids, I'd be paying for it in spades the next day.

Actually, it is a great diet.  He eats very well. Normally there are many more vegetables but yesterday we needed rid of the fruit.  Treats and sweets are a part of his life and he enjoys them in a healthy moderation.  I realise that your children could not eat the way he does Deb but I am not talking about your children - my son has no wheat, rice, dairy or gain issues, and I am referring to him, not to children with special or different dietary needs.  

Please remember that I did not in any way say that 'bad parenting' is a factor, not in regards to myself, to Charli's DDs or to any other children.  I think that my husband and I are great parents, although we make mistakes sometimes, we are still great parents in our eyes. And there are days when my son is unbearable - and it is certainly 100% not food related for him.  

Of course, as I said he has issues with a green jello that he often is offered when he does to DH's school, and so obviously I am not saying that there are no issues with food dyes and such.  I am highly allergic to tartrazine and although it does not affect my behaviour in any way, I do break out in head-to-toe hives and rashes.  But in general, when eating an overall healthy diet, when there are no food intolerances, a child who is eating a healthy balanced diet of whole, fresh, unprocessed foods as Charli is offering, a sweet treat is not going to send the kids around the bend.  

And defintitely, Steffi has shown a great example of what can happen when it is not an issue of sugar or food intolerances, but rather just from years of all-around unhealthiness.  Their bodies must have just felt awful, trying to process all of the salt, fat, lack of fresh produce and vitamins   And they probably did not ever consciously realise it, and most people do not.  But also the types of foods Steffi is feeding them now includes (as she listed) things like grains (which would be a large variety of them in the various German breads, not just wheat), cheeses and other dairy (I assume lots of quark) and some treats like chocolate.  Probably pretty much how we eat here too    So sure, once again yes there is a relationship, of course there is  - I just don't think that Charli's DDs are eating like that, is what I am trying to say!