Naps - trying to extend but just makes him really cross!! Any ideas??

[moonbeam_me]

My 16 week old takes 4 naps a day - each one lasts 45mins (the dreaded!) - his A-time is generally 1hr30mins, depending on how much stimulation he has had.
The A-time includes approx 10-15mins of quiet time just before going up for the nap then a short wind down as he is touchy when it comes to sleep.
He gets 12 hours a night but does have approx 3 NW's.

I have tried and tried to extend the naps but it just makes him so upset and cross - he nearly always wakes up from his naps happy and continues his day happy, but whenever I try to extend the nap it puts him in a really bad mood

So far I have tried going in the room at the 30min mark and holding his chest (seems to wake him early), once awake and calling for me I have tried Shh/pat in crib and PU/PD but he just starts really crying as though he is ready for A-time and getting frustrated.
Sometimes though when I bring him downstairs he starts yawning straight away which makes me wander if, despite waking happy, he needs more sleep.

He rarely acts OT at the end of the day so I just don't know if I should let him carry on with his 45min naps in the hope he will grow out of them and nap longer when he is ready, or if I should perservere?

I just find that lots of short naps means we can't get a lot done in our day as he struggles to stay awake much longer than 1hr30mins...

[Khalam's Mama]

Has he ever slept more than 45mins?

I wonder if he is UT. 1.5hrs is quite short A time for 16WO. The average being 1hr 45-2hrs for 4mo. Maybe you could try extending the 1st morning A time when he has had lots of sleep in the night. Some LO just get used to sleeping after the same amount of time and need a few days and maybe incremental increase of 10min at a time to get used to being awake longer. Maybe you could just walk around with him for that last 5-10mins to keep it low key?

You could also try wake to sleep where you go in 10mins before he wakes so at 35mins and just stroke his face so he stirs then let him go back to sleep - sh/pat if you need to. This may just reset his sleep cycle. Sometimes it takes a week for this to work. We did it for 2 days and he sleep only a few mins longer but from the 3rd day he went from 45mins to 1.5hrs and we never looked back. I also never had luck getting him off again once he woke up.

[DSAN]

I agree with PP! When my DS was around 16 weeks he all of a sudden needed to make a huge leap in A times. Once we figured that out he started sleeping longer (yet now we are stuck on 30 min naps, lol)

[moonbeam_me]

Hi ladies - thanks so much for the advice and taking the trouble to help - so sorry for the late reply bet you thought I was so rude not getting back, just been away and had no internet sorry!

Just to update you; LO has only ever slept once past the 45mins mark - when he was about 10 weeks old and never done it since...

I have taken all your advice on board and do think you're both right about him being UT - while away I thought it wasn't the right time to be experimenting with A-times, but I tried the day before I left and got stuck in today now I'm home....here's how it went;

Before going away....
He always has to have his first nap in the pram while I am out walking the dog in the woods so didn't think this was an ideal one to start with. So kept A-time as normal and then extended the second instead. I only extended it by 10mins and just slowdanced in the kitchen to music. He started crying a little and rubbing his eyes so I took him upstairs and did our usual (short) wind down and put him down. He did go down at first but then started crying (OT cry) and was very difficult to settle. He did eventually after several PU/PD's but still slept 45mins that nap.
I repeated the above for next naps but he seemed to get really OT by the end of the day and still slept 45mins to the minute!

I then went away but today tried again;
This time I did as you suggested and tried to increase his first A-time of the day; I walked somewhere quiet and nice and smooth so he had ample opportunity to sleep longer if he wanted to.
I increased his A-time again by 10mins and he started having a bit of a cry on the way to the woods (10min journey in car) - when we got there the minute he was in the pram he started crying and this got progressively worse all the way around the walk and I ended up carrying him half the way around he got so upset! I wasn't sure if he had wind and being a little OT made him worse, but by the end of the walk it was definitely an OT cry. Either way he would not settle and I ended up BF in the car park to calm him down.
He eventually slept in the car for 20mins on the way home and that was that.

I tried again for the next nap but he was yawning after 50mins A-time! I tried to keep him up a little longer but he got really upset so put him down.
This time I went in at 35mins and when the door opened (creaky!) he stirred so I didn't stroke his cheek.
He woke at 45mins mark as usual so I went in and gave PU/PD a go again and while patting his back walked around the room....suprisingly he actually settled and I put him down. He cried and did same again and went off for all of a minute before waking and crying and getting very cross at which point I thought best not push him and took him downstairs....but this is soooo much better than how he used to be as he would not even entertain it 2 weeks ago

I have noticed that on our morning dog walks while away he cried hard also even when not increasing his A-time and he has rarely done this before; as though he was fighting the nap. I am wandering if he is 'naturally' trying to reduce the number of naps he is having and will gradually merge them into longer ones? I live in hope haha

I am going to perservere again tomorrow see how it goes x

[Khalam's Mama]

Keep us posted. I'll be back.

[moonbeam_me]

Well I have left it a couple of days to see if there has been any progression....here's how the naps went;

Yesterday:

Nap one -
Dog walk so napped in pram - slept for 35mins after only 1hr 10mins A-time - dog was pestering so had to get going and he fell asleep as soon as pram got going

Nap two -
Started yawning after only 1hr 20mins A-time - kept awake - slowdanced in kitchen to keep relaxed - went up after 1hr40 A-time - had short wind down and into crib - 1 x PU/PD as very OT and crying - by the time he was asleep A-time was 1hr50mins - went to sleep
After 35mins went in to stroke cheek - stirred and woke up crying! - PU/PD and cried - PU and got very cross after 10-15mins so abandoned trying to extend and went downstairs - was inconsolable and very cross, had to give breast to calm him Fed for 10mins so poss related to growth spurt?

Nap three -
Started yawning and rubbing eyes after only 1hr 20 A-time - 5mins later starts crying, only 'twittering crying' but telling me he's tired - took up to bed as didn't want him to get too OT - asleep after 1hr 30mins A-time
After 35mins went in and stroked cheek - stirred and moved head from side to side but stayed asleep - woke after 45mins on the dot
As soon as tried to resettle by PU and patting back, got very cross, despite waking up happy

Nap four -
Missed it! Tried getting him to sleep in pram as was out with dog again because DH late home, but he wouldn't sleep despite yawning all the way round! Was in bed then after 3hrs A-time...

Today:

Nap one -
Dog walk - asleep after 1hr20mins A-time (difficult to extend this one as have to get out first thing so relying on his staying awake longer in pram) - asleep for 40mins

Nap two -
Yawning after 1hr20mins A-time - kept up another 15mins before going up for wind down - in crib after 1hr40 - started chatterting in crib but rubbing eyes for 20mins! Started crying and after 1 x PU/PD went off after a total of 1hr50mins A-time
Started crying after only 35mins asleep just as I went up to stroke cheek aaaahhhh!!!
Tried PU/PD but having none of it and remained grumpy after coming downstairs 10mins later.

Nap three -
Managed 1hr45mins A-time - asleep first time - went up at 35mins to stroke cheek and he was wide awake in crib smiling at me!! Tried to resettle by patting back and walking around room but got cross and when abandoned it became all smiley again

Nap four -
Missed it again - would not sleep - as though doesn't need another before bed?

What is going on! Naps getting shorter and less frequent after more A-time! Please help xxx

[Khalam's Mama]

When is he eating? Sometime the 45min naps are a sign they need more time between E. Maybe post your EASY. If he is happy perhaps he does only need the 45mins. PUPD is only meant to calm an upset baby so is likely to frustrate him if he wakes happy. When you do the wake to sleep can you start patting/resettling before he fully wakes?

[moonbeam_me]

He is EBF and goes about 2.5 - 3hrs between feeds...He normally eats about 30mins after waking depending on when he is hungry.

He is pretty happy after waking and rarely acts very OT at the end of the day so maybe this is just something he will grow out of in time or should I perservere because extending takes time?

I could try the patting/resettling before waking but he is not great at being settled in the crib so I am pretty sure this would wake him and make him cry to be PU.

You're right I think he is getting frustrated being PU and patted after waking happy, but it's the only cue I can think of to get him in the frame of mind for more sleep!

Todays EASY -

0830 - up (Late today as had a hard time settling him last night, a whole different thread!)
E 0900-0910 - feed
A 0830 - 1000 (minus 10mins for feed)
S 1000 - 1040

E 1140-1150
A 1040 - 1255 (minus 10mins for feed)
S 1255 - 1330

E 1350 - 1400
A 1330 - 1535 (minus 10mins for feed)
S 1535 - 1610

E 1620 - 1630
A 1610 - 1900 (minus 10mins for feed)
S - 1900 bed

[Khalam's Mama]

If he wakes happy have you tried just leaving him and seeing if he Will resettle? Sometimes my 3mo wakes at 45mins and babbles for 10mins then falls asleep again. If he is happy what are you hoping to achieve by extending his naps? It can take a while to extend with wake to sleep so it may be worth trying for a couple weeks if you think it is necessary? The a time includes the time to eat too by the way.

[moonbeam_me]

I have tried leaving him but he starts crying after about 10mins.

He is happy but shortly after waking he starts yawning and rubbing eyes as though still tired?
Also I feel that by having lots of short naps we can't get a lot done in our day, but obviously this is a minor issue and him getting enough sleep is the most important thing...I guess some babies just don't need 2hour long naps
I also somewhere that 45min naps are virtually pointless? But he seems to do OK on them and it's the whole extending thing which is putting him in the bad mood!

[deb]

Have you read our post about how Tracy helped us with extending Josie's naps? We had to extend her A time little by little and keep things low-key for a while, as she was a touchy baby. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=649.0 . Not everything will apply, but it is a real-life example of extending the A time and changing up the routine a little bit.

When J was doing 45-minute naps, she was chronically OT and actually needed way MORE than 4 naps a day, usually 5-6 of them until we got them extended; we were also able to break the cycle sometimes by using the car or stroller, and for a while when I needed my own break, I would let her sleep on her tummy on my tummy while we both got a delicious 2-hour nap now and again.(Do use the bathroom before doing this - thing sI learned the hard way!)

[Khalam's Mama]

There is some thought that 45min naps aren't restorative but Tracy does say if they never take more and are happy some are just set like that. You could always commit to 2wk of wake to sleep and then if no luck even with appropriate a times say he doesn't need them. But also remember the a times assume they have had good sleep before so after 45mins it may be too long. The 1st a would be the best 1 to push out. Could you take him in the sling to walk the dog so he can stay awake longer?

[moonbeam_me]

Deb - thanks for the link, I will have a read tonight
He is funny because even in the car or buggy he still sleeps for 45mins to the minute! I just don't know why, you would think the car would just zonk him out but we went on a 3hr motorway journey last week and still slept for 45mins even though we hadn't stopped!
My husband slept with him on our bed last week which was a complete one off and he went for 1hr5mins so wandering if I should try this and see if he can get the hand of the transition to the 2nd cycle, what do you think?

Khalam's Mama - Maybe LO is set like that for the time being as you say...I have done 1wk of wake to sleep so will try another week and I think then leave it for a bit and try again when he is a little older? Yes I do have a sling so could use this to walk the dog, hadn't thought of that, he is just so heavy (big boy!) that it would probably have to be a short spin and the dog may not approve! I will give it a go I think when DH is off so he can walk the dog and I can concentrate on the 1st A-time. Will keep you posted

x

[moonbeam_me]

Just wanted to update you with how we're getting on....and ask for your help as our naps have taken a turn for the worst!

Well I have worked really hard on increasing LO's 1st A-time of the day...he has been going 1hr45 - 1hr50mins but now only naps for 30mins instead of 45mins for his 1st nap. Although he wakes up happy from this nap, it seems to be putting him in an OT state for the rest of the day and as a result he has become increasingly difficult to settle for sleep and his naps are getting shorter
He is also showing sleepy signs much earlier now (like after 1hr 10mins, sometimes as little as an hour) yet when I try to put him to bed (to prevent him getting any more OT) he fights it and although initially gets sleepy after our wind down, once in his crib acts as though a switch has been turned on in his head and is wide awake and crying despite before being able to get himself to sleep quite happily...
I just don't know how to break this cycle?

Deb - I read your link and it was really inspiring. I just wanted to ask about the 'light feed' part; my LO is EBF and only goes about 2.5hrs at the moment between feeds. So I am finding that by increasing his A-time to try and get him to nap longer, his feed comes round quicker and I think he may be waking up hungry.
I was wandering if the light feed may help us also break the 45mins barrier? As he is breastfed I don't want the breast to become a prop as it was in the early days for us and I am worried he may start associating the breast with sleep again if I use it as part of the wind down, even though I am not feeding to sleep? Also he tends to overfeed and make himself sick/ get bad wind from feeding too regularly, how did you go about avoiding this?

Thanks x

[deb]

When I started the pre-nap snack feed with Josie, by then I didn't care if it became a prop - I just NEEDED her to sleep and to not wake up whining already. It had the added benefit of increasing my supply, so feeds became bigger and more filling for her. So we had less frequent but bigger feeds. If your DS is spitting up, reflux might be a factor, in which case putting him horizontal, which can increase the reflux action, might be causing the upset when you try to put him down. Had we known what to look for, that would have been one of the first clues that Josie had reflux.

Is he waking earlier in the morning and then waking tired for the day? A 30-minute nap sounds OT, while 45 is usually UT.