Pat-shh going wrong

[bessie26]

Help!

DD2 (3 months) is getting increasingly difficult to pat-shh.  Here is our ideal EASY

E 0600
A 
S 0730
E 0900
A 
S 1130
E 1200
A 
S 1330
E 1500
A 
S 1630
A 1715ish
     1745 bath
E 1800
     Bed

At naptime I darken the room, put on White noise & put her in a sleepsuit. We sit down in a chair & have a cuddle. On a good day I would then put her in her cot, give her a kiss & leave her to go to sleep. Unfortunately this hasn't happened for a loooong time & instead I pop her on my shoulder & start pat-shhing. How long do you pat-shh for before giving up? What seems to happen most times these days is that she'll cry & cry,  only stopping when she's fallen asleep on me. I can sometimes get her into her bed without waking, but even then I know she'll only sleep for 45mins  max & all I've done is reinforce AP :-(

It's so frustrating because a few weeks ago she was managing to self-settle herself about half the time. 

What am I doing wrong? The things I can think of are

A. She's got used to sleeping on me. 
We had a rough patch a week or so ago where she kept waking so much in the night (every 45min/1.5hr) that she ended up in bed with me because I was worried I would fall asleep in the chair & drop her. 
If this is true do I just have to persevere & hope it doesn't take too long to start working again?

 B. She needs to increase her A time
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652#msg476652
3 weeks ago, 1hr 20 was working well, I'm currently trying 1hr30. I start the wind-down about 15mins before then. (I'm having to go by the olock as i don't get many signs, sometimes a yawn, but not always) Increasing it again seems like a big jump?

C. She is so OT that even the perfect routine wouldn't work at the moment. 
How can I get past this without AP? when DD1 was OT (she had colic) I used to push her in the pram for miles until she had "caught up", but DD2 doesn't sleep in the pram, or car seat...

D. My EASY routine is wrong

E. All of the above

Any suggestions on how to get out of this? I am so tired I'm finding it difficult to come up with a plan.

[bessie26]

DD2 is 12wks old. Her naps have never been brilliant & often struggles to get past 45mins, but it's now getting difficult to get her into her cot in the first place.  

She doesn't give me any sleepy cues until it's too late so i'm having to go by the clock :-( About 4 wks ago 1hr 20min was a good A time for her, so I'm now trying 1hr 30. I start her wind-down (dim lights, white noise, sleepsuit) about 10 mins before.

 I can (usually) pat-shh her on my shoulder or chest to get her relaxed, but as soon as i put her in her cot she starts crying . By the time we've repeated this a few times, she's OT (if she wasn't in the first place?) and after about 30 mins i have been giving up & doing AP so she does at least get SOME sleep.  

Her night-time sleep has been rubbish for the last few weeks, but we've had about 5 good days now where she just wakes once (4am) or twice (1 am & 5am) for a feed. (I'm not doing df until she is better at self settling!) 

Any suggestions? DD1 is at nursery the next few days so I have a better chance of getting this sorted (or at least improved!)

[Colin Macs Mom]

bumping up the list for you

[creations]

oh ((hugs)) to you, you must be exhausted!

You've given quite a bit of info already but can you give a little more please - when does she start crying?  Is it as you go upstairs, as you put her in her sleep suit, when you sit down etc?
What sort of cry is it?  Does it start low and escalate or does she go zero to a hundred in the blink of an eye?
What's her mood like before going for a nap?  Is she happy or grouchy?
Do you take into account what activities she's been doing, for example if she's had quite a chilled out time maybe she isn't quite tired enough for a nap, but if she's been to play group, seen lots of faces and toys then maybe she is getting too tired (over stimulated) and needs a shorter A to take this into account.
Do you try to put her in her cot or are you staying in the chair shush patting through her crying?

I would say that sleeping with you in the night has certainly had an impact on her ability to self settle do you kbnow what was causing those NWs?  Was she ill?  Have these NWs now stopped?
To get back on track you will need to be strong in yourself and either sooth her in the cot or make sure you get her back into her cot as soon as she is calm - no more nodding off in the chair or bringing her into bed with you.  My guess here is that you were utterly shattered and did what was easiest in the short term - don't blame you - but for the long term, yes, you do need to persevere to get back on track.

I might not be of any assistance in this but if you can give this additional info then perhaps the next pair of eyes will be able to help?

Meanwhile, if you think she is really OT and you need to get past it before moving on then you'd need to AP a full nap in your arms if she won't sleep in the pram.  Sounds counterproductive but some people aim for one self settle nap per day and AP the others to prevent OT.  Others prefer to do the whole lot in one hit and put in that amount of energy but for fewer days if that makes sense.  It depends what your preference is and what you feel able to commit to baring in mind you must be shattered.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here too, and just see what you think.  Could the wind down be taking too long for her?  This might be what's causing her to cry, she wants to get in her bed and get to sleep but you are delaying her (with mummy's love and cuddles). My LO will cry if he is not given the opportunity to sleep and that includes not wanting me there putting him off, mummy's can love a little too much sometimes because we care so much.  Some Los get frustrated by being taken up too early and then given a long wind down, mine prefers full on play right to the point of really needing to be asleep and then straight up stairs, in his sleepbag, half a short song and into his bed.  It is super fast (and the room is left constantly dark so there is no further delay in shutting curtains) and he usually goes to sleep within about 2 mins.

Hope things improve for you soon x

[Erin M]

Perhaps more A time?  My ds is roughly the same age and I'm suddenly finding that we need closer to at least 1.40 of A time, maybe more still tweaking here!

[bessie26]

Thanks for your replies!

Creations - in answer to most of your questions - it varies! 

She is a happy little thing as long as she's not OT (like her mum!) so she's usually happy when I start the wind down, but sometimes cries as soon as I start pat-shh (while holding her), other times she'll start when I lay her down in her cot & it is LOUD crying straight away, I am shhing as loud as I can, but she drowns me out!

I sit in the chair pat-shhing until she is calm, then lay her down - I thought that putting her in her cot when she is crying would be a Bad Thing?

I have absolutely no idea what was causing the NW! She's just 3 months so perhaps i can blame it on a growth spurt?! For the last week she has just been waking once or twice for a feed, which is fine with me :-)

I'll try harder to stay awake in the chair for the night feeds - perhaps some retail therapy on my phone will help?!  I don't need to wake her after a night feed do I? 

I think you might be right about the too-long wind down. Because I've not been sure when to put her down, I've maybe been too "calming" too early. DD1 didn't like me faffing about with too many cuddles either!

Erin - 1hr 40eh?  I shall be braver increasing the A time! 

On a positive note, this last week DD2 has been getting better at finding her thumb... today she was sat in her bouncy chair while i was washing up and started sucking it.... so I took her upstairs, gave her a quick kiss & cuddle and put her to bed where she slept for around an hour! :-). Fingers crossed the thumb is the really blatantly obvious sleepy cue I've been looking for!  

[creations]

Hey - brilliant that you put her down calmly today and got a longer nap!  That's great!

I've maybe been too "calming"

This could be it.  If she starts crying when you start shush pat and holding her or while you shush pat in the cot it might be that she is being bothered by it.  Sorry I can't lead you to the right page just now (I'm rushing as it's time to be on duty for the DF etc) but Tracy mentions that some babies get frustrated by it even if they have previously found it calming, I think she might have said around 4 months (could be remembering wrong there) but of course they are all different so it could be this is the problem now.  My DS certainly got a temper on with me shush patting and faffing and cuddling and the more he cried the more I wanted to cuddle and shush pat!

If you think this might be the problem skip it or change it.  The quick kiss and cuddle seemed to work well today.  You can replace shush with a phrase, 'sleepy time' or something you choose and just repeat that, or be silent.  You can replace pat with just a hand on her, or rub her tummy...adapt and find what works for your LO.  I really do not agree with CC at all, but a couple of times told my LO that I was going to let him be because I thought I was upsetting him but that I'd come back if he needed me (and I hoped that he didn't feel abandoned!).  I waited outside the room to see if the crying decreased (it was not all out screaming, it was sad sounding crying though), if not I went straight back in, but often he reduced the level straight away and this helped me realise he needed some space.

 

I don't need to wake her after a night feed do I?

No.  There's no activity with a night feed, she can sleep through it or if she wakes you can just pop her straight back in bed after she's finished the feed.

Just to confuse you though - if she is happy when you take her up maybe she isn't quite tired enough yet and as Erin says try a longer A, her starting to cry as you begin shush pat could be that she knows that's the sleep cue and she's trying to tell you she isn't ready.  Lengthening the A time and reducing the wind down in combo could help.

Oh I'm sorry to confuse you like that, but you might have to do a bit of experimentation.

Don't know about the thumb sleepy cue though - DS has his fingers and thumb wiggling around his mouth half the day but it's more to do with teething and not a sleepy cue.

[Erin M]

When my dd1 found her thumb it was in her mouth ALL the time so I wouldn't take that as a sleepy cue. I'm totally trying to find the right A time right now and a bit lost myself, but some folks I know on the site with similarly aged LOs find that we are needing A time closer to 2 hours.  Sounds crazy, but we are slowly trying to get there.  I find when I'm closer to being right with A time, he likes me to just put Jim down and let him be to fall asleep.

[bessie26]

Hi

Hope you had a good night! I was woken at 1130 by DH getting into bed <grrr>  then at 130 & 410 by DD2 wanting a feed, which I stayed awake for! :-)

She woke me up again at 610 (I'm assuming she hadn't been awake much longer than that) and fed again . I then watched her for sleepy cues...

0653 yawn
0659 yawn
0702 started sucking thumb
It seemed far too early, but I thought I'd better try putting her to bed. So I took her into her room & put her white noise on. I lay her down in her cot (saying the usual go-to-bed words) and she starts crying. I tried to soothe her in the cot (big shhing, soothing words, hand on tummy, what else do you do?) but after a few mins (5?) gave up & picked her up (should I have tried for longer?). She the continued crying unless I walked around with her until 745 when she fell asleep on me. I would have tried to get her into bed again, but I was trying to get DD1 ready to goto nursery (while DH got himself ready for work) and DD1 likes to "help" me put DD2 to bed by shouting "CLOSE YOUR EYES DD2, GO TO SLEEP!" :-) <sigh>

So, she fell asleep after ~1hr 40 & of course woke 45mins later at 830. Again I tried to soothe her in her cot for 5 min, but failed & ended up APing her to sleep.

Erin - what do you do when you don't get the A time right? Do you AP him? 

I feel like I'm just digging myself into a bigger & bigger AP hole. We're going to stay with my SIL in a couple of weeks & I can see me spending the whole week trying to get DD2 to sleep in a stupid travel cot while DH plays on the beach with DD1. 

I thought I'd try using the thumb sucking as a cue as DD1 used to suck her thumb & play with her hair when she was ready for bed (although perhaps I'm being too hopeful that it will be this easy?!) DD2 does ram her hands into her mouth a fair bit throughout the day, but this was a proper sleepy thumb suck IYKWIM.

[creations]

0653 yawn

Another BW told me that yawing early (and other sleepy cues, eye rubbing etc) can happen early if a baby is well rested and indeed I've found that after a good sleep DS does indeed have a few yawns and rubs his eyes during a feed almost every time - this has got to be the most confusing thing ever!

It seemed far too early

I think you're right and I think that's why you had a fight on your hands and she cried as you put her in the cot, UT.  At times like this, when you're watching the clock and desperately trying to do what's right for LO one can end up distrusting one's own instincts.  Maybe time to listen to yourself again and have more confidence in your instincts telling you when the right time is?  I know it's really hard!  This morning I've just done the same thing, DS seemed like he was saying he was sleepy and I KNEW it was too early but I went ahead and took him to bed - crying - got him back up, apologized to him for getting it so wrong and we went and had some cuddle time looking out of the window and talking about what we could see.  He eventually settled at the right time but I'd already upset him so he didn't go to sleep happily like many days and I had to go back in the room 3 times to settle him, I usually go back in once (for about 30 seconds) if at all.  We can all get it wrong in trying to do our best for them.

We're going to stay with my SIL in a couple of weeks & I can see me spending the whole week trying to get DD2 to sleep in a stupid travel cot while DH plays on the beach with DD1.

Personally (though not everyone might agree) I'd just try for night time sleep in her travel cot and maybe the occasional nap if you are all at home at that time because you need to enjoy your holiday and use it as a chance to have fun and re-energize too.  You don't want to regret having missed the beach and watching DD1 play etc (you already sound like you're dreading it).  You can get back on track once you're back home.  Do you have a sling/carrier/wrap or beach-friendly pram as that might be a way of getting out to the beach and APing naps whilst still being with the rest of the family and getting out and about.  Use the time to build some lovely memories and don't worry too much about the sleep aspect during the holiday.

[bessie26]

Yawning when well rested? The little monkeys like to keep us on our toes don't they?!

This nap time went a bit better, after being awake for about 1.5hrs she was all calm & looking a bit sleepy in my arms so I popped her in bed where she promptly started crying again.. I noticed she was also coughing so I decided to jack the head of her bed up again (more about this below)  While I was doing this I put her on my bed propped up on some pillows with my phone playing white noise next to her. By the time i'd finished faffing about with her bed, she was lying there sucking her thumb, eyes starting to close! So I put her in her bed, hand on tummy & after a few seconds grizzling the thumb went back in & she nodded off. I left the room after about 5 mins when her thumb fell out of her mouth.  So that's another 1hr 40 of A time!  fx it's a nice long nap.

Perhaps she gets annoyed by me being around when tired?!  She has got herself all snoozy like that at bedtime a couple of times, so I'll try it again next nap-time!

Her bed is raised because we thought she had reflux (sometimes bringing up milk, unsettled when laying down, coughing, getting a snotty nose) but we have decided that she doesn't (gaviscon made no difference to her big possets) and we think she is just guzzling more milk than will fit in her little tummy! I had lowered it a bit this morning, but have put the blocks back now.

Holiday with DHs family (his parents are going too) is a whole other thread, but DD1 will love it & so it will be worthwhile.  I am hoping to get DD2 to sleep in the sling or buggy in the mornings when we're out & attempt the travel cot in the afternoons when DD1 naps (my back is aching just thinking about it!)

[creations]

Wow!  Sounds like you've found the answer!  Prop the cot and just 'dump' her in there!  She appears to have loved the zero wind down when you put her on the bed whilst you were busy fixing the cot and just grizzled about being disturbed.  Wow wow wow!  I think you are right when you say she is maybe getting annoyed with you being around when she's tired.  When through similar with DS.

You might want to look into that possible reflux again though you know. Gaviscon is not great, it helped us temporarily but then after a couple of weeks the reflux just returned despite the gaviscon, what really helped was proper meds from the paediatrician (ranitadine, and carobel milk thickener).

my back is aching just thinking about it!

You're back might return fully functioning if you only have to pop her down with your phone playing white noise!  Wishing you lots of success with it and a good holiday too (even if you're not really looking forward to it) x

[bessie26]

Hehehe, it's good to know you're not wanted eh?!

She woke after 45mins, so I'll try stretching that A time by another 5 mins...  I'm so pleased it looks like a timing issue (& me being over-motherly) rather than any aversion to the bed or need for AP. Thank- you so much for your help! :-)

The reflux is a weird one... She sometimes ticks quite a few of the boxes for the symptoms, but not always & there's no crying at feeds or when she brings up milk. I only looked into it because she was unsettled at night & I still don't know that the two were connected. 
I hold her upright for about 30mins after feeds & have her bed tilted, which seems to do the trick. If it does get worse I will be straight back to the Dr (I found one whose own DC suffered from it) 

Hope your DC doesn't suffer too badly? My friend's DD had it & the only way they could get her to sleep was  on them, I think even now at 3yo she ends up in their bed most nights. 

[creations]

Hehehe, it's good to know you're not wanted eh?!

I know! DS now growls at me if I try to help him with solids, he does self feeding great but sometimes he's so hungry he wants me to shovel breakfast porridge in his mouth for him, then the growl comes as he is so frustrated that I'm doing it for him and I have to give him the spoon back.  Meals times are brilliant, he's such a character.  Such independent little things until they need carrying up to bed, I wonder if they'll just trot off on their own once they're walking?

My LO never cried at feeds with the reflux and we only started on meds (first gavi then on to the paed) about 4 - 6 wks ago (at around 4.5 or 5 mths ish) as prior to that it wasn't really so bad.  You might find she does have reflux but it's manageable but do remember it can disrupt sleep.  Ranitadine controls the acid, caroble thickens the milk, you might find just adding the carobel to feeds helps keep the milk down and keep her more comfortable (sorry didn't look back to see if you ff or bf). Just keep it in mind perhaps.

[Erin M]

I also get in the way too much sometimes!  When James takes a short nap I will usually try to settle him in the crib for a few minutes (generally doesn't work) and if not I will try to APOP him back to sleep.  If he's happy enough, we just cut the next A time short and try again.  I've got 2 older girls, so time is short some days!  And I definitely agree with PP, don't worry about it too much at the beach, just enjoy it.  Maybe someone will be there who would love to hold her for a nap or two if need be.  I often find that to be the best part or seeing family!