15 week old naps a mess - in fact whole EASY a mess help!

[ails81]

Hello all

I feel like a bit of a serial poster as I seem to have an issue for every forum! But I think my ds naps are the thing I really want sorted most of all and I know they are all connected.  Ds is 15 weeks old and he has always been a good napper consistently going 1.5-2hrs sometimes more if I didnt wake him.  For last week or so he has started only napping for 45mins then waking up crying.  I know he is still tired but he wont resettle.  After coming on here I realised he might be ready to change to 4hr schedule so I upped his feeds as he had been draining 6oz bottles in readiness for working on the change over.  But as soon as I upped his feeds he just started going 4hrs between feeds but the naps havent changed.  He has always woken once in  night for a feed and im happy with this as im sure waking once he is hungry but then he wakes again and im sure he isnt.

I try to make sure he naps in his cot as much as possible and he does need his dummy for his naps if he is in his cot but not if he is in his pram or car (dont know why!).  But he doesnt wake up when it falls out.  I have put 3 days worth of EASY below and grateful for any ideas.  After day 2 I read about going in around the 35min mark for the “jolt” which I did on day 3 (today) but at 35mins he just woke up and instead of his normal crying he just woke up looked around and lay there happily for 10mins cooing and then when he noticed me he just started smiling and giggling.  This is most unlike him!  I will try it again tomorrow.

Day 1
Dreamfeed 1030pm 5oz
Woke 140am – given dummy
Woke 215am – given dummy
Woke and fed 330am 5oz
Woke 620am
E – 7am
A
S – 810am – 940am in cot (longest nap of week!)
E – 1040am 6oz
A
S – on and off 12-1pm in pram
E – 215pm 7oz
A
S – 3pm – 4pm then 440pm – 5pm in cot
E – 550pm 6.5oz
Asleep by 630pm
Dreamfeed 10pm 3oz
Woke 235am Fed 6oz

Day 2
Awake 545am
E – 640am
A
S – 730-830am in cot then 10-1030am in buggy
E – 1040am 6.5oz
A
S – 1155 – 1240 in cot, wouldnt resettle so walked around with him 10mins then slept 120-215pm in cot
E – 230pm 7oz
A
S – 420-5pm in cot
Bath
E – 530pm 6.5oz
Asleep by 6pm
Awake and fed 1225 5.5oz (this is 7 hours between feeds so he can do it!)
Awake 420am – dummy
Awake 515am – dummy

Day 3 (out most of day)
Awake and up 615am
E – 650am 7oz
A
S – 810-845 in cot wouldnt resettle after 30mins and smiling content etc so out for walk then when back tired again and slept 10-15-1050am
E – 11am 7oz
A
S – 1230-115 (in car)
E – 230pm 6.5oz
A
S – 415-445 in pram then 515 to 615 in car
E – 650pm 7oz
Asleep by 735pm

And thats today, any ideas welcome, I feel like we are in a right old mess!   I try to make sure the last 10mins before sleep are low key and relaxed but I feel we are stuck in a cycle of him getting overtired because he ends up with too much A time because he wont nap long enough.  Or he has 2 A times with 2 S times as well! 

[ails81]

oh and i meant to say i decided to drop his df last night and tonight as I couldnt see what difference it was making and wanted to see when he would wake on his own

[ails81]

well he had a lovely nap this morning of 1.5hours which was perfect I thought, we were out over lunchtime not ideally so he only had a nap of 45mins ish at lunchtime was clearly very OT by the time of his catnap this afternoon and screamed like a loon for 1hr before settling.  He has been asleep for 45mins now and cos it took so long he is due to go to bed soon so I know I should wake him but I hate waking him after such work to get him to sleep

[ZacsMumme]

Hey hun how are you getting on - sorry it looks like this post was overlooked.
If you are still having problems post your latest EASY and I will have a look

[ails81]

Hi!
I did think nobody loved me!       

We are doing much better though, for over a week now he has been sleeping at night from about 7pm to 6am!  So very pleased!  Naps are still odd but Im kind of just going with it for now.  He is settling at night really well no dummy or noise but he still wants his dummy for naps and is still sometimes very resistant to going down, mostly I think as he is OT but sometimes it might be UT.  Im not really sure.  He is now on 8oz 4 times a day so our typical day is something like this (not a typical EASY!):

Wakes around 6am
E - 630 8oz
A - 645-8
S - 8-845
A - 845 - 915
S - 915-10

E - 1030 8oz
A - 1045-12
S - 12-1
(sometimes will go down for another nap before next feed, sometimes not)

E - 230 8oz
A - 245-415
S - 415-5ish
A - 5-630

E -630 8oz
Asleep by 7

Occasionally he stirs in the night but normally either goes back off after a while of whining or goes back off with his dummy.  The fact he is now sleeping thro makes me think I shouldnt worry about his naps but the fact he fights his naps makes me think he does need to go longer in one go for them.  Iv tried being in the room around 35mins for the jolt and help him back off or trying to resettle him when he wakes but he wont have any of it.  So we will go next door or downstairs and then 15-20mins later he is whinging as he is tired so he goes back up to bed!  Im not sure of the solution.  But twice this week he has gone for 90mins so he can do it but I dont know whats different when he does that.

[ZacsMumme]

Great to hear things are improving. And way to go on the STTN!!!!! That is wonderful.

Short naps are very common between 3-6 months (I had a chronic cat napper for months) and to some extent this is developmental. They are learning how to organize their day sleep and transition between sleep cycles. We can try to help them through the transition, and tweak their days to ensure they are not UT/OT, but at the end of the day some LOs will still only nap 45mins. At ~6 months your LO will most likely start to nap longer on his own.

Does your LO ever sleep shorter than 45mins? Some will do say 35mins if they are OT and 45 if UT.

Few questions
When you say he fights naps what is he doing, arching back, or angry and wanting to play? Crying or moaning, eyes wide open or wriggly?...
Which nap is it that he has slept longer for? Was it always say the lunchtime one or the morning one?

I suspect you are keeping OT at bay with lots of short naps, which is the best way to do so if you cant extend...I am just trying ot work out if your Lo is OT or UT at that first nap to then help you tweak

xx

[ails81]

Thank you.
The longer nap tends to be the morning nap.  He is really bad as well if we are out or people are round he struggles to nap at lunchtime as he is too nosy and wants to know whats going on!
But every day seems different.  This morning he had a nap from about 8am-845am and he woke up chatting away to himself and perfectly happy!  So we got him up and went out he fell asleep in the car but only for about 5mins.  After his next feed at 1030 he was fine we went out again and then he fell asleep in the car on way back no more than 5mins again so put him straight to bed when we got in and at first he was just talking to himself and his eyes were drooping but then he just wouldnt settle and started really crying.  So I took him out as he seemed wide awake again and then he came downstairs and had about another 45mins of A time and was really content and happy talking away!  So he didnt have a nap at all between his 1030 and 230 feed!  But then predictably about 15mins after his 230 feed he was exhausted and fell asleep after a bit of whinging for about another 45mins.  He was still sleepy and fell asleep in the car again for about 15mins.  He was then up between 4 and 515 and then fell asleep in car again until we got home at 6 then he went straight to bed!

To be fair today was a strange day we arent usually in the car this much!

When he fights his naps, normally he starts off ok just talking to himself or mild whining.  But then the whinges become worse until he starts crying.  Put the dummy in and he closes his eyes and makes a sort of "yum yum yum" noise (dont know how else to describe it!).  But then it usually takes at least 3 or 4 more replugs until he settles.  And like I said sometimes he wont settle at all like today.

Today im sure he was def OT in the morning but other days im not sure if he is actually UT when I put him down. Its usually 45mins exactly he sleeps.  But I find his tired cues tricky as he uses the same whinging noise all the time for anything!  I try to change the activity and if he still whinges I assume he is tired.  He also rubs his face against my chest which I take as him being tired but then I might be missing cues before that too.  Im not really sure what im doing to be honest!!

[ZacsMumme]

He is really bad as well if we are out or people are round he struggles to nap at lunchtime as he is too nosy and wants to know whats going on!

Have you tried white noise in his room to dull out other sounds? This worked a treat for us

The car is hard. DS dozes in it sometimes too and it messes up our day. I always try to keep him awake i nthe car and be home at least 45mins before his nap time to prevent him cat napping in the car. It is hard though!!!!

It does sound like he was very OT today.

Put the dummy in and he closes his eyes and makes a sort of "yum yum yum" noise (dont know how else to describe it!).  But then it usually takes at least 3 or 4 more replugs until he settles.  And like I said sometimes he wont settle at all like today.

LOL DS makes the yum yum yum sounds too with the dummy in. This is in our case his settling sound. Let to his own devices he will settle to sleep. You may find because your LO can not replug himself yet he is dropping the dummy while trying to settle and this is waking him back up. The he is getting OT. You may have to look at weaning the dummy if you don't want it to become a prop.

He also rubs his face against my chest which I take as him being tired but then I might be missing cues before that too.  Im not really sure what im doing to be honest!!

Its okay hun....we are all learning as we go. DS also rubs into my chest when he is tired

So. Lets start with that first nap.
Because you are not sure if his 45min nap is UT or OT we may have to play it by ear. At first I would think UT if he is waking bright as a button. BUT 2 hours A is on the higher end for a 4 month old. Have you tried putting him down 10mins earlier to see if he settles better that way. It still may take him 10 mins to do so, but then he would be asleep earlier. If he still does 45 mins after 2 days, and/or is fighting you or being silly because he is 'not tired' we will then know that maybe he needs a touch more A.

What do you think? The other thing you can try with that first nap is W2S? Have you tried this?

I would also take away all the stimulating activities 1/2 hour before naptime. Some babies get to OS at this age to WD for naps

[ails81]

Thanks hun its all really helpful.  Today has been a bad day, he has a horrible cold and im not sure if he is maybe teething as he has been screaming and thats not like him at all. I cant feel anything but he def isnt happy!  I do think I will wean the dummy but il let him get better first as I think doing it when he is poorly might be a bit cruel. He is also due his last jabs this week so might get that out the way then work on weaning the dummy next week.  As he isnt well today naps havent been good either.

He went down for his morning nap ok, again 45mins but woke happy.  His dad then took him out for a walk and he fell asleep again for another 45mins so he was obviously still tired.  I think he is also having his 4months growth spurt as he was really hungry today so my EASY was a bit confused so I kind of just put him down when I thought he was tired but trying to get him down this afternoon for a sleep about 3 was terrible, he screamed and screamed and wouldnt even take his dummy. Eventually he fell asleep for about 45mins but was still whiny when he woke up.  I think he is more sleepy tho cos of his cold.

But he went down to bed tonight fine so hopefully he will have a good sleep and feel better tomorrow.  I havent tried W2S but I might try that to see if that helps, worth a go!  I have started to try to make at least 15mins before I put him down more chilled out just us chatting or walking about the house but I might extend that like you say to 30mins.

Thanks for all your help its much appreciated.  Once he is feeling better I will be able to focus better on the naps and will need your help even more I think!

[ZacsMumme]

Today has been a bad day, he has a horrible cold and im not sure if he is maybe teething as he has been screaming and thats not like him at all. I cant feel anything but he def isnt happy!  I do think I will wean the dummy but il let him get better first as I think doing it when he is poorly might be a bit cruel.

Agree...right now just help him get through it. Colds are awful for them - esp when their noses get all blocked up. I find eucalyptus oil (few drops) in some boiled water in DS room when he naps really helps keep him clear. It will stink out the room but worth it

You may be heading into a WW about now. Developmental leaps can really upset sleep and your babys temperament. (During this one my DS would wake screaming at midnight for about 5 nights!!!)
http://blogginaboutbabies.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/wonder-week-19/
http://www.thewonderweeks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65&Itemid=156

If you think he is going to short nap all day just offer them closer together and more to keep OT at bay.

I have started to try to make at least 15mins before I put him down more chilled out just us chatting or walking about the house but I might extend that like you say to 30mins.

15mins should be fine unless you think he is cumulated OT, touchy or needs 'time' to shut out the world

No problem hun, I have BTDT and it is a really hard hard age....just remember....this will pass

[ails81]

Thank you   I think there is definitely something developmental going on.  He still has this cold so havent changed anything yet but last 2 mornings he has decided to wake really early.  Yesterday was 430am and he would not go back to sleep so I ended up feeding him and he fell back asleep till 8am but then this messed up our timings for the day a bit.

This morning he woke up at 5am and after a bit of encouragement managed to get him to go back to sleep till 640am which was better. 

Part of why he might be waking earlier is because for the last few days he has started to refuse to have a nap at all in the afternoon.  He has been going down really well for his morning nap (albeit still 45mins) and then trying to get him down around 1pm for a nap has resulted in 2 days of him just screaming for an hour and thats so unlike him, proper screaming.  It has had me in tears both times!  I take him up as soon as I think he is showing tired signs (same as his morning nap) and when I put him down he seems sleepy takes his dummy rubs his eyes etc but within 5mins starts crying and wont go to sleep at all.  This has resulted in when it comes to his bedtime feed at 630pm he is practically falling asleep eating and so doesnt finish the full feed.

Its a real struggle, even the dummy doesnt soothe him and when I try PU/PD he gets more irritated by being picked up so I just try to console him in the cot but he wont have any of it at all.  Then if I do pick him up and take him through to my room to calm down and sit on our bed with him he is all smiles again!  And doesnt seem tired at all!  Then 30mins later he is getting whingy and we start over again.

I think I will wait till this cold has gone then totally re-evaluate his EASY and see whats happening and come back and show you.  On the plus side he had his last immunisations yesterday and seemed to take it all in his stride

[ails81]

  just had the worst bedtime ever!!  I know this isnt really to do with naps but since iv started this thread thought I might as well add it.  I dont know what was wrong with him, he normally settles so well at night but he wasnt having any of it.
He was just screaming and screaming, wouldnt even take the dummy so decided I would have to do PU/PD.  From previous attempts at PU/PD I know he doesnt really like it too much in terms of being picked up and reacted a bit better to just being settled in the cot.  Started with PU and PD but then managed to calm him down just with my hand on him in the cot but then he went completely mad and after 20mins I had to go out for 5mins.  I didnt like leaving him crying but I thought it was better than shouting at him which I felt on the verge off

Went back in carried on PU/PD he started to settle and looked like he was almost asleep but then turned his head towards me, opened his eyes saw me and started screaming again like a madman.  So went thro it again and next time he looked like he was settling I quickly left the room.  And he did go to sleep.  Took 35mins so not too bad really but it felt like forever.  Now I feel like I should carry on and not give him the dummy back since iv started now but I dont know, what do you think?

I dont know what was up with him, he was obviously very OT but I dont know why, he actually had 3 naps today of about 3.5hrs total which is more than he normally manages!  There is definitely something else going on I think but I dont know what yet.  Im praying for a good night :/

[ZacsMumme]

I think he still sounds poorly. When they are unwell they cant always tell us what is going on. Have you looked in his mouth to see if there could be some teeth movement? Teething really upsets some LOs. I would medicate 20mins before BT and see if that helps.

I also think looking back at your EASY your LO is going to need an A increase. It is hard to tell when they are unwell though. See how tonight goes, and how he is cold/teething wise then post EASY. I think we need to start fresh

[ails81]

hello again   right I think he is feeling a bit better now, seems more himself and last couple of days have been much better. I have posted the last 2 days EASY below.
Day One:
Woke in night about 440am but went straight back to sleep with dummy
Woke for day at 645am
E - 7am 8oz
A
S - 9-930am with massive fight to get him to sleep! (in cot)
E - 11am 8oz
A
S - 1235-220pm (!) in pram in park
E - 230 8oz
A
S - 415-435 in car
E - 620 7.5oz
S - 635am - 620am (woke 440ish settled with dummy)

Day 2
Woke 620am
E - 7am 8oz
A
S - 805-850 in cot (think this was maybe too early and he was UT?  but he was showing tired signs and had been up for 1hr 45min)
E - 11am 8oz
A
S - 1220-1255 in cot - gave up trying to resettle in cot after 30mins of screaming.  Took him downstairs and he fell asleep on sofa from 210pm - 355pm!!! He hasnt slept on the sofa for weeks!!
E - 4pm 8oz
A
S - no catnap
E - 715pm 6oz
S - 730-615 (no night waking and woke up chatting away to himself )

So I think there is some progress in his naps in the afternoon being longer albeit not in his cot!  I think maybe stretching that A time out is the key.

What do you think?

[ZacsMumme]

So I think there is some progress in his naps in the afternoon being longer albeit not in his cot!  I think maybe stretching that A time out is the key.

Great progress, and yup agree re that first A time...sounds like you know what your doing

Those 4amers if he is 'hanging out' also indicate a touch UT so stretching that first A will help with that.