Stubborn 45 min nap messed up the whole routine!

[Ke]

Hey all,

My DD cannot extend her 45 min nap. Tried everything: W2S, shh/pat,PU/PD, put down after light activity, even TU before put down again. All didn't work. All these took about 1+hour. After this, shall I stArt her 2nd feed n nap as usual? Or do I feed her n let her sleep right away? Sometimes she refuses to be fed if being TU after 45 min nap, then how shall I cArry on the routine for the rest of the day? Discouraged n puzzled!

[ZacsMumme]

Can you please post your daily routine in EASY format. What is TU?
ie
E 7.00
A 7-9
S 9-1030...

Few questions so we can better help you out
How old is your LO?
How does she sleep at night?
After her 45 min nap does she wake happy or crying? Are all her naps 45 mins or just one?

Hang in there hun. In the meantime do whatever you can to get her to nap, she is likely OT as a result of the short naps

[Ke]

Hi ZacsMumme,

Thanks for reply.

My LO is 15 wo.

I didn't start her on EASY till last week because my milk supply tends to be unstable and low. I wanted to feed her as much as possible to stimulate milk production, so I BFed her to sleep a lot of times.

But since I tried to build routine for her last week, she can now fall asleep on her own fairly quickly and she wakes up to be fed around 3am after the df b4 mid night.

I'm still trying to figure out what routine fits her, 3 hour, 3.5 hr or 4 hr. She wakes up after 45 mins quiet or with mild cry and looks tired. If i dont take her out of the room or nurse her the cry would escalate, even turns hysterical. I'm very uncertain if she wants to be nursed for comfort or for food, because she also doesn't eat much at all at her feeding times esp.in the morning. 

Since she doesn't have a fixed routine yet, I can only provide these 2 days EASY:

Yesterday-

E- 7:00
S - 8:40
A - Woke up @9:35, quiet but escalated to cry
E - 9:50 for only 10 mins
A
E - 10:30 (tried to follow 3.5 hourly routine) 20ml from bottle
A
E - 11:40  50 ml from bottle 
A
S - 12:10
A - Woke up @ 1:00 cry gradually became inconsolable. 
E - 1:30 Breastfed on one side Bottle fed 30ml
S - 2:25
A - Woke up @ 3:30 crying
E - 4:00 breastfed for 20mins
CN - 6:05
Woke up - 6:45
E - 7:10
Bath - 7:30
Tank up & Bed - 8:00
Df - 10:15
Night feeding - 2:45am
Woke in morning - 6:45am

Today

E - 7:00 BF for 10 mins
A
S - 8:30
     W2S @ 9:05, but
A - DD woke up at 9:15, tried everything
E - 9:45 Bf for 10mins
A
E - 10:30 REFUSED to drink
A
E - Again at 11:30, took 30ml. 
S - 11:45 
A - Woke up @ 12:20, escalated to crying uncontrollably. Hysterical.  
E - 12:40 50 ml from bottle, nursed (in between fell asleep for 10 mins) 
S - 2:20
A - Woke up @ 3:10, tried everything(the whole time her eyes were closed),finally
S - 3:50
E - 5:00 full feed from breasts
A
E - 7:00 bf a bit
A - bath
Bed - 8:00
Woke up and bf on one side- 9:00

It seems I fed very frequently but it's exactly because she took very little at most feeding times. And many times I fed because I thought she couldn't sleep longer because of hunger.

If she had been feeding well I would not have offered breast or bottle to her inconsolable cry after a short nap. Really lost... Don't know how to help her without ignoring her needs...

Any suggestions?

Btw, by TU I mean top up.

[ZacsMumme]

So you are doing mixed feeding correct? I think you are feeding too frequently which is why sometimes she is refusing to feed. If you are going to top up with the bottle I think you would be okay to stick to 3.5 hour feeds and not feed when she wakes. However I do think you would be best to post about your feeding problems on the Bottle or BF boards to get some more eyes.

I personally think she is comfort feeding, and possibly this is becoming a prop. If you are worried about supply you could cluster feed in the evening or offer a bottle later in the day, but I really do think posting on the E boards will help I do remember when DS was about 4 months old he would only feed 10 or so mins each feed...at this age they become quite the efficient feeders

With regards to her naps, you could try increasing her first A time a tad (10mins or so) and see if this helps her to have a longer first nap, she seems like she could be ready for more A time and is UT at naptime...but the short naps are creating OT. IYKWIM?

If you get a good first nap then try for the same A time for the next nap, if you think she cant handle it then that is okay you can do one A time at a time. If you get a first short nap and cant extend with APOP then reduce the second A by a touch - say 15 mins (watch her cues) and then hopefully his will prevent OT. You could also try W2S or HTTJ at this second nap.

What do you think?

PS this is a tough age, lots of developmental stuff goes on including a change in the way they sleep so hang in there


 

[Ke]

Thanks so much for your help and encouragement. Btw, what's APOP, IYKWIM?

Today DD got up by 815am, so by the time she had her first feed, she was pretty hungry . So she had a full feed. That helped me to set her E back to normal.

After reading other posts I tried pat/shh and Httj to extend her naps, though she didn't fall back to sleep tightly as she did for the first 45 mins, I did manage to get her to have super short sleep(ranging from 1-10mins) in between all the screaming. so that's some success there.

Her EASY went like this:
E 8:30
A
S 10:00
  Woke up @10:45, trying to extend her nap
E 11:40
A
S 1:10
   Woke up @ 1:55, trying to extend her nap
E 2:30
A
S 4:10
   Woke up @ 4:55, trying to extend her nap
E 6:00
A
Bath, top up 7:30
Bed 8:00

Will see how it goes tonight.

My first child is angel baby, so EASY was really easy on her. But this lo is so different  but yes, will definitely hang in there. Thanks Again for encouragement.

And I will try to extend her A time tmr.

One thing I'm puzzled: DD is able to fall asleep at nap time very independently (without me being in the room) and very fast (within 5 mins), why is it so hard for her to fall asleep again after 45 mins? Is this a common sleeping pattern for babies?

 

[ZacsMumme]

APOP = Accidental Parenting on purpose - so you do whatever you can to get your LO to sleep even if it is rocking etc to get the nap. But you are doing it knowingly to get the nap, not as a habit. Bare n mind it can become a prop for LOs so sometimes you then need to re sleep train. confused much?

Is this a common sleeping pattern for babies?

yes...between 3-6 months they organise their day sleep. 1 full sleep cycle is ~45mins. Most LOs learn to transition on their own by ~6months.

I would maybe focus in trying to get that first nap a touch longer by giving her more first A. Then maybe try W2S on the second nap. Remember to pull the next A back a bit if you get a short nap to avoid OT. Your second A looks too long after a short nap. ((HUGS)) its hard work

[Ke]

She made it! 

DD managed to transit to the 2nd sleep cycle at her 2nd nap today.

I tried to extend her first A 10-15 min longer, and she cried after 45 mins but eyes closed. I found she didn't really appreciate my "help". My voice, more so my touch would frustrate her even more. So her 2nd part of the first nap was mixed with a lot of screaming, whining and quiet sleep. Throughout the process her eyes remained closed.

Then I reduced her 2nd A by 15 min, like what you suggested. After 45mins of sleep or so, she started to cry and whine, but I stayed in her room just observing without giving any "help". She went through the first 20-30 min with, again, crying and sleeping, eyes closed. after that she fell into deep sleep and I had to wake her up later. By then, she had slept for 2 hours and 10mins! Should I have woken her up earlier? Did this long nap cause her to have a short nap at the third nap?

Knowing that she can transit to another sleep cycle and can do it on her own really encouraged me. And thank you, Zacsmumme, for the suggestions. it's really helpful. Here's her EASY today:

  up 7:15
E 7:30
A (1.55)
S 9:10 (40 min + 40min of mixture of sleep and crying)

  up 10:30
E 10:40
A (1.35)
S 12:05 (45 min + 35 min of mixture of sleep and crying + 45 min)

E 2:20
A (1.40) (she got cranky around 1.30 mark)
S 3:55 (50 min)

  up 4:50
E 5:10
not happened yet by the time of posting, planning to do:
A (1.40)
E & B 6:30
DF 10:30

Could you help me to improve her EASY?

I have a couple of questions:
1. Is it ok for her to wake up and go to bed at different times everyday? it looks like her EASY time shifts every day.
2. I always tried to wait for the 3hr or 3.5 hr feeding mark to feed her. therefore, there's always a period of wake time between the time DD wakes up (if she has shorter nap) and the feeding time. Is that ok?

Thank you!

[Ke]

Just to update-

I couldn't put DD in bed as planned, so she went to bed at 7pm instead of 6.30pm. Is this too long of A before bedtime?

She only drank 60ml ebm. Should I have planned to give her a CN, and put her for bed later, like around 8?

[ZacsMumme]

DD managed to transit to the 2nd sleep cycle at her 2nd nap today.

Wondeful

found she didn't really appreciate my "help". My voice, more so my touch would frustrate her even more. So her 2nd part of the first nap was mixed with a lot of screaming, whining and quiet sleep. Throughout the process her eyes remained closed.

SOme babies dont, some as you say find the voice distracting and prefer pressure or patting, others are the opposite and like voice but hands off. It is great you are identifying what works for you and your LO.

I suspect your LO was making noises through the transition...was it for the 20mins following the first 35/45? This is often when I used to notice DS struggling.

I think it is easy to run in and 'help' them to sleep when sometimes as you have done, they just need time and the right support to do it on their own. Now you will have a good idea of if her noises are mantra or sleeping settling noises vs crying out for you...WELL DONE hun

This is a very common age for short naps, so knowing she can transition is great, and makes me think you have probably got her A times pretty close to where they need to be.

I don't think 2hrs 10 is too long at this age and after other shorter naps. If you start to get solid naps over 2 hours then I would suggest maybe cutting back.

So...I would look at gradually increasing her A times, just by 5-10 mins or so to start with to prevent OT. After a few days you could try an additional 5-10 mins if you think she needs it, and then I think you would be right where you need to be. Start with the first A, and if you get a good nap you can do the same with the second A. If you get a short nap then leave your second A where it is to prevent OT.

1. Is it ok for her to wake up and go to bed at different times everyday? it looks like her EASY time shifts every day.

Or course. EASY is a routine/pattern it is not a rigid schedule. We never have two days the same (sigh) but you will find your days become more consistent and you and your LO will know what to expect and when each day.

2. I always tried to wait for the 3hr or 3.5 hr feeding mark to feed her. therefore, there's always a period of wake time between the time DD wakes up (if she has shorter nap) and the feeding time. Is that ok?

Again, yes this is okay. The EAS is really to prevent AES where your LO is developing a feed to sleep association. Sometimes EASY can become EASAE when Los short nap. As long as there is something between feeding and sleep you should be okay.

HTH

[ZacsMumme]

3hrs is a long A before bed for her age, but if she slept well I wouldn't worry about it as a one off. Just try to keep her last A closer to 2 hours or 1.25-1.5 after a CN