Support Thread for 2-1 Nap Transition cont'd pt 4

[Khalam's Mama]

Terrible, but thanks for asking. We have had lots of 2 nap days or 1 nap days with naps less than 1.5hrs. This has been accompanied by even more NW than usual.
It is just impossible to get out atm as he will sleep in the buggy or car for sure. This morning DH took him in the buggy to get eggs at 8.45 and he had only been awake 2hrs and he slept 45mins. I have been needing some shopping for over a week now but can never find a time to go that will not mess up his naps. K used to nap 1.5hrs in the buggy at this age so sometimes I could let him have this as his 1 nap but B will rarely do a decent nap so I have to try to avoid it. Very frustrating.

[theu.s.lees]

Okay, I'm jumping in here. I have been posting on the 2-1 naps forum, but my DS is 13 months, time to face the facts that he isn't a little baby anymore!

I'm thinking of just cutting out his morning CN, but not sure if that is a fix. Right now his day is (or it was until a few days ago)

6:30-7 am Wake up
9:30-9:45 CN (I wake him after 35 minutes)
1:00 - Nap (Usually around 2 hours sometimes 2.5)
6:30 BT

Then the past two days he has basically refused his second nap. He was out like a light when I woke him from his CN, so I figured he'd still be ready for his second nap. I realize it is a short A time, but last week when it was 3 or more hours he was a wreck OT and couldn't sleep for very long. He went down fine for his second nap yesterday but woke after 30 minutes, playing/laying back down trying to settle over and over. After 45 minutes he had enough and I got him up. Today he just never settled. He wasn't crying or fussy in his crib, just up and down trying to settle but getting no where. So, I'm letting him play a bit longer, and then going to try to put him down for an hour nap here shortly.

Will I be in a world of hurt if I just cut that morning nap and bring in the second nap a bit? I feel like it will be ripping off a band aid, but I thought we still had more time since we hadn't cut this first nap back to 20 minutes yet, and it was only a week or so ago that we cut it back to 35 from 45.

Thanks for the help!

[Khalam's Mama]

I found there not to be much difference from 45-35mins so maybe you need to just cut straight to 20mins?

We got one nap here today so I am hoping for a better night. A good 2hr nap and EBT all gave a pretty decent day so FX he isn't OT.

[trimbler]

Hope he's out of that OT cycle now, Khalam's Mama?

I'm afraid I don't know about going cold turkey since we hung on to that morning nap until 18mo when it was 10-20mins and he was often refusing it anyway! I know when our DS was 13mo he was doing something like:

6:30 Up
9:30-10:00 Nap1
1-3 Nap2
7ish BT

..and by 15mo he was down to a 20min nap in the morning, although he had a few hiccups along the way with illness etc. But for him, 5 minutes made a big difference, in fact during this phase every time we shaved 5 mins off the morning nap, we had to bring the afternoon nap forward by 15mins. But I know they're not all the same But tbh I'd have thought if you were going to go cold turkey you'd want to know that he was capable of at least 4.5h A time, even 5h, which it doesn't look like he's doing yet?

[theu.s.lees]

We decided not to go "cold turkey!" But we are now doing a 2 nap one day, 1 the next. It seems on his 2 nap days his BT is around 8, so he sleeps in the next day and then we do 1 nap. Should I try cutting the nap back from 20-15 minutes on the 2 nap day to try to bring in the second nap and BT? It seems to be working okay as is, but isn't very constant for him....

Trimbler - that does sound like my son a lot, actually. We had that same schedule not too long ago, and then this week, he slept until 9 on Wednesday, had 1 nap, BT around 6:30 which meant up earlier on Thursday, and then later today. Did you have that?

[theu.s.lees]

Well, we had quite the interesting past couple of days. I don't think M was ready for a 20 minute nap, or we weren't getting him down early enough for his second nap because we had nap struggles/short naps all weekend. He would take longer to settle and/or wake up after 1.5-1 hr 45 minutes, which hasn't been enough. I'm happy with that 2 hr second nap!

So back to 30 minute first nap, to try to balance things out again. If it starts pushing his BT back too late then I will try cutting his am nap a bit more, but really making sure to reduce his A time. It seems like 5-10 minutes off the first nap and he could only make it 2.5 hrs until the next. We were doing 3 (instead of 3.5) and he seemed to meltdown quickly.

I think I'm going to keep an EASY journal for a week or two to see if I find any patterns as well.

Happy Monday, here goes another week. Hopefully I can listen to M more and not try to push his A time out because of what he "should" be doing.

[Losh]

Hi fellow sufferers!

I posted on the main board with my original 2-1 woes and we are down to 1 nap now but I am having a lot of trouble getting my LO to sleep for long enough. He seems to need a really long first A in order to take a nap of more than 1 hour, but the nap is often less than 1.5 hours no matter what ....

I had been trying a late PM CN if the first nap was short, but have experienced 2 problems: If he goes for his first nap after 6 hrs A and sleeps for 1hr 20mins, it makes it a bit too late to try for a CN. Secondly, on the last few occasions I have tried for a CN, it has been refused anyway!

Since going onto 1 nap the night sleep has improved and we haven't had a bad EW for some time (touch wood), but as his 1 nap is so short I have been doing an EBT, which means he is still waking closer to 6am than 7am, even if he does pull a 12hr night! His total sleep in a 24 hour period hasn't really changed, just switched around, but I am also worried that he will end up OT with such a short nap.

Below is our EASY for the last few weeks - I would be grateful for any input on where I might be going wrong!

UP        A          NAP    LENGTH   CN    LENGTH   BED    NIGHT
06:47   06:04   12:51   02:00   00:00   00:00   19:40   11:31
07:11   06:15   13:26   01:44   00:00   00:00   19:40   11:04
06:44   05:26   12:10   01:35   16:35   00:30   19:45   11:11
06:56   05:09   12:05   01:05   00:00   00:00   18:25   12:14
06:39   05:36   12:15   00:50   15:05   00:40   19:01   11:34
06:35   06:08   12:43   01:21   00:00   00:00   18:50   11:45
06:35   05:53   12:28   02:28   00:00   00:00   19:50   11:10
07:00   05:25   12:25   01:52   00:00   00:00   19:20   11:36
06:56   06:02   12:58   01:24   00:00   00:00   19:00   11:29
06:29   05:40   12:09   01:18   00:00   00:00   18:26   11:55
06:21   05:49   12:10   01:00   00:00   00:00   18:39   11:51
06:30   05:45   12:15   01:15   00:00   00:00   18:35   11:36
06:11   06:19   12:30   01:23   00:00   00:00   19:04   10:56
06:00   06:45   12:45   01:31   00:00   00:00   18:38   11:55
06:33   07:27   14:00   01:00   00:00   00:00   18:35   13:08
07:43   05:52   13:35   00:54   00:00   00:00   19:12   11:17
06:29   06:09   12:38   01:02   15:22   00:27   18:57   11:54
06:51   05:19   12:10   01:25   00:00   00:00   19:13   11:38
06:51   05:24   12:15   01:15   00:00   00:00   18:51   12:11
07:02   05:35   12:37   01:13   00:00   00:00   18:42   11:35
06:17   06:00   12:17   01:24   00:00   00:00   18:37   11:25
06:02   05:48   11:50   01:25   00:00   00:00   18:25   11:45
06:10   03:30   09:40   01:00   14:45   00:41   19:13   04:47


Sorry to throw so much data in, but I thought it might paint a better picture rather than the odd day here and there!

He goes down for naps and BT quite happily as a rule and we have no NW (also touch wood!)

Thanks in advance!

[trimbler]

theu.s.lees - your plan sounds good to me, how's it going? We never actually did alternate 1 and 2 nap days, because DS goes to a childminder on Mon/Wed/Thu, so we didn't have the flexibility to allow him to lie in, and the afternoon nap time was pretty much fixed at the childminder's. So I just experimented with 1 nap days on Fri-Sun if we got a good WU time (so 1 day a week max!) until the clocks changed which meant he was getting up later and could then manage to make it to the afternoon nap time at the childminder's without his morning nap. But by that time he really didn't need his morning nap any more and had begun to really protest it!

Losh - I can't advise on the CN as we never tried it but did an earlier BT if he did a shorter nap. I know it's quite usual for LOs to take some time to lengthen their nap once they switch to 1 nap, mine certainly did. I see the best nap there came after an A of 5h53, after a night of 11h45. But when you next tried a similar A time it was after a night of 13h+ and you got a shorter nap. So it may be that you could adjust the A time a little according to how long the night was? But IIWM I wouldn't have let him sleep in so late that day (7:43) anyway. Do you follow cues or stick to A times/set times? Since our DS started at his childminder's at 11/12mo, we've had to set WU (ok, 'get out of cot') times and nap times and I think this may have helped him set his body clock. At the moment I see that WU times have varied a lot - I'm quite familiar with that too, but I always fix the time when I actually get him up - so if he wakes early, we go in to try and resettle him, and even if he doesn't go back to sleep it's quiet-ish time for him. If he's still asleep at that time then we wake him. From your data I might suggest trying something similar and see if that helps set his day? Or maybe wait until you get a 11.5-12h night and an acceptable WU time and try a 5h50ish A time. What I've heard is that at this stage a nap < 1.5-2h is often OT, however there also comes a time when they may even need their naps trimmed in order to get a good night. However I suspect this isn't yet the case for you, as your nights are nice and long. HTH?? It is so confusing for all of us!

[*Kara*]

Losh - his first A time is far too long hun.  It really should only be about 5 hrs for the first few months after moving to one nap.  I would really do all I could to get him down after 5-5.5 hrs in the morning.. he could be giving you refusals as he is so OT.  As Trimbler said, any nap less than 2 hrs (even 1 hr 50) is OT when starting with one nap... the trimming of that nap will be a ways off yet.  DD moved to one nap at 11 months 1 week and we are *just* entering nap capping now and not every day... she is almost 18 months old.

[Losh]

Thanks for the replies.

Trimbler, I thought afterwards that the same A after a long night was probably the problem, but I have been trying to be consistent with the A times and neglected to think about the night sleep on that day! He isn't the best with his sleepy cues so I tend to stick with a maximum A time. We were out the other day and I tried to get him to nap on Granny's bed, but it took me a long time (that was the day with the 7+ hr first A ) and to be quite honest, he was full of beans and not at all looking tired until about 10 mins before I finally got him off (on the sofa in the lounge in the end)!

As for the late WU, we have gone without an alarm clock since having Sam as he is a very effective alarm clock, so it was only when I woke up that I realised how late it was! TBH, it would never have occured to me to wake him though ...... he had just an hour nap the previous day so I just thought he was catching up. Would you wake at the same time every morning no matter how long he had napped for or what time BT was?

The day he had the mega nap of 2.28, I woke him up though because it had got to almost 3pm and I was worried the BT would end up super late and my day really long. Was this a bad move do you think? I hated to do it, but didn't want an UT EW.

Kara, I have tried shorter 1st A, but these seem to result in 50 minute naps, which I was told was UT? He goes down happy enough for his first nap whether it is 3 or 6 hrs A - he is very odd!

I rather thought that the 1hr 20mins naps were OT, but as his nights seemed to have sorted themselves out, rather hoped that it was working anyway, sigh!

How early a BT would you recommend if his nap is short?

Thanks again.

[trimbler]

Losh - I'm sorry I can't remember, how old is Sam? We hung onto the morning nap longer than we really needed to for him, he was 18mo and apart from a few days at the beginning, we never got > 2h naps. But then I realised we'd hit the 18mo regression at the same time and his sleep needs had decreased and A times leaped at around the time we stopped making him take a morning nap! I've no idea though whether your LO is at this stage or doing the 2-1 earlier than ours?

I would always wake at the same time but that's often out of necessity anyway... although I think I would try to stick to the same time even if it weren't, just because I think it helps M to stabilise his day. But that's not to say that yours will be the same. Must have been a nice surprise when he woke so much later

What A times and nap times was he doing before making the switch? Might just help to work out what he's likely to need now? And I forgot to ask earlier - do you try to resettle him if he wakes early, how and for how long?

As for EBT - we've found that this just doesn't work for M any more, although we'd try PD ~15mins earlier if he's not slept well. But it still takes him ages to get to sleep at BT, this is our issue at the moment! But when it did work for him, it was a matter of compromise. Too early and he might not be able to get to sleep for ages anyway or wake early; too late and he's terribly OT and has lots of early evening NWs and EW. I always felt it was better to err slightly early - if they then wake early but refreshed in the morning, it's easier to work with them and even stretch them a little longer until nap time. If they're prone to EW when OT (is yours?) then that just makes everything harder the next day. However, now we do the opposite - if he EWs when OT after a poor sleep day, it's easier for him to go back to sleep. Why do they keep changing just when we think we've worked them out??

[theu.s.lees]

A quick question...for the am CN, do you start timing as soon as you put him down or do you count from when he settles to sleep?

Today Milo was tired when I put him down for his CN, but it took him 40 minutes to settle. He wasn't crying, just moaning, a little sitting up and down and such. He was worked up, I think, from kid's club at the gym (an entirely different issue) where he was away from me. Anyway, he finally was asleep at 10:30 (which I'm usually waking him up at 10:15 from his 30 minute nap) so I'm waking him at 11. What would you do? Will that make his A time longer or about the same to his second nap do you think?

[Losh]

Hi Trimbler,

Sam was 15 months on 30th April.

Before we started the 2 – 1 he had been doing 1.5hrs am and 1.5hrs pm. Around November that 2nd nap started getting shorter and coincided with me pushing the am nap out. I was planning on doing away with the PM nap once the AM nap was later and by the end of November our EASY looked like this:

Awake 6.30, nap at 10.30 – 12.00, nap 15.00 – 15.45 and BT 7pm

Our problems initially began in mid December when he started nursery. He started short napping then and it would take me a day or 2 before I could get him back on to a longer nap, by which time it was almost time to go back to nursery! (He goes 2 days a week). He also started with the 5 / 5.30am wakings then. At first I would bring him into bed with me and bf back to sleep, but after a while he wouldn’t go back to sleep.

It was around this time I first posted about the EW on BW. The replies I got back suggested that we were in the 2 – 1 and that a long am nap and a short pm nap was a likely cause of the EW and I should swap the naps and PD no earlier than 9.30am and cap at 30 mins and then PD 3 hrs after WU and leave him sleep. This did seem to help somewhat with the EW, but he would only occasionally nap longer than an hour at the 2nd nap, so was ending up with less sleep than before!

After nearly 3 months of doing this I posted in BW again and that was when I started doing the longer first A and offering a CN if the nap was short. It also coincided with him moving up to the next room at nursery, where they all have 1 nap around 12.15.

I used to try and resettle him with shush/pat and PU/PD, but as he got older it so very, very rarely worked and I have been known to climb into the cot with him and bf him back to sleep – crazy  . I usually don’t bother anymore but I have on occasion used WI/WO recently to combat an EW. These days he just gets upset up tries to climb up me to get out of his cot! He has recently learnt to say ‘up’ and he yells this and points to the door, so I usually take the hint! 

Also after saying I don’t get NW, he hard a really hard time settling last night and woke up twice, around 8.30pm and 9pm. The first time I lay him down and rubbed his back to get him back off and the second time left him to it and he went back off after a couple of minutes. He has done the same tonight, but I don’t know if this is OT or illness related. He has been drooling really badly for the past 2 days and has a nasty rash around his mouth. I was assuming it was teething related, but after thinking a bit more and taking a few other things into consideration, I am now wondering whether it is Hand, Foot and Mouth ….. That is another post in itself though!

As for EBT, Sam always falls asleep on the breast on a EBT so I know he is defintely tired and we almost always get a long night out of him, so it works for us, but I have always been reluctant to PD too early - didn't want to over-egg that pudding! I always thought EW was OT, but have had EW after days when he napped well (maybe just habit by that time though?) TBH, I am so bloody confused with the whole thing I don't know whether I am coming or going! 

[Papaya]

theu.s.lees: time from when he falls asleep

I know this is way too late to help, but I would have gone for a shorter A after a later CN, as he would have been OT by the time he finally fell asleep - but pm nap would probably still be a bit later than usual. So in that situation I would have been inclined to do a slightly shorter CN, and pull the second A time right back

[theu.s.lees]

Papaya, you were right on. It was a bit late, but will help in the future and helps to explain the rest of the day.

The past two days have been good (knock on wood). We started a 25 minute am CN, with 3 hrs A time to the afternoon nap, where he's sleeping around 2 hrs (+/-). Then 4 hours of A time before bed. He's been happy, we've been happy. Let's just hope we can keep up on it and watch for small changes hinting at needing to cut the am nap again.

Thank you for everyone's help.