Support Thread for 2-1 Nap Transition cont'd pt 4

[j.and.e]

Slept till 5.40 so not too bad! Now try again to push day later... Xx

[jillc]

Kara, How much earlier did you bump up bedtime? 30 mins? Or more? DD slept 10:45 solid last night without a peep. Up at 6:15. It's weird how she seems to be hardwired for that wake time. You'd think they would wake when they've gotten enough sleep, but wake time seems to be totally independent of sleep needs. I'm so scared of an early bedtime because as I said before we've only gotten this late a wake-time thanks to our recent daylight savings.

[*Kara*]

I had a set bedtime of 7pm and would do 645pm if needed

I only ever got a night longer than 10 hrs once I pushed to one nap

[j.and.e]

my lil munkey did a 2hr am nap 10.30-12.30 and then 3.15-4.15 (they woke). Today was a nursery day. He nevr sleeps like that at home! I did 8pm bed as he was falling asleep on me (after a 5.40am start). Am just hoping 4a 10hr nite... Althou am amazd at his day naps, as i mostly only get 1hr 10 all day! Xx

[*Kara*]

He likely wears himself out at nursery

[trimbler]

Interesting catching up with your latest... I'm not sure what to do about EBT In the past, if he had a short pm nap, for whatever reason, EBT would work really well for him, he'd get to sleep quickly and be able to catch up on sleep during the night, even doing up to 13h about 6 months ago! Ok more like 12h max more recently, but even so, it worked... Now, he's just taking a real age to get to sleep whenever I PD All started with us all getting a stomach bug 3 weeks ago when his day and night sleep went bad. He just seems to have got so OT that he can't catch up again. He's always tired, but just can't settle for sleep especially at BT

Now our issue is that his pm nap time has to start between 12:30 and 1pm, and finish no later than 3pm, three days per week, when he's at his childminder's. His previous routine (before it all started going wrong) was:

06:30 Up (if he woke earlier, he'd stay in his cot until this time)
09:30 PD for nap1 (20mins, variable settling time)
1:00 nap2 (2h)
7:45ish BT (ie 4h 45mins A time)

We have occasionally experimented with 1 nap days at the weekend, and seem to find that he needs a first A time of 5h 15mins to get a nap of 2h+ (yesterday it was about 2.5h in total but he needed resettling in the middle, however his previous night's sleep wasn't so good). But we still haven't found the 'right' A to BT with 1 nap, working on that... Once our clocks change (next weekend), I'm hoping for something like:

7:15 WU (can't be later than this for childcare drop-off)
12:30 - 3pm nap
7:30pm?? BT (thinking might need to start out at 4h 30mins A time, perhaps?)

BUT... We've had lots of horrible EWs recently, until yesterday he hasn't managed to get back to sleep at all, but yesterday he went back to sleep at 6:30, just when we'd have got him up anyway! So I tried the above routine, waking him at 7:15 to start the day. Nap was good enough, considering, but it took him ages to settle at BT and then we got 5:30 WU... back to sleep 6:15ish for half an hour only. Tried for a morning nap since I knew we wouldn't be able to give him an early enough pm nap, but that was refused so it was 12:30 PD and only 1.25h nap He was so tired after that but just could not go back to sleep, we tried for sooooooo long! So, woke 1:45, spend 1h+ trying to get back to sleep and tried for EBT at 6pm... Still trying to go to sleep at 7:10pm, so as you see the EBT just doesn't seem to be working any more Should I have tried even earlier, do you think? Kara - I agree that OT will always just result in EW, but when you did EBT to avoid this, it doesn't sound like it was actually much earlier than usual? Did you then get EW, or were you able to resettle?

I'm sorry for the mammoth post, I'm just so tired, confused and desperate! I feel like we've got 2-1, 18mo regression and illness (still has a cold which has been going on ever since he recovered from stomach bug) all at once, and I just don't know what to do or how to get any of us enough sleep!

[*Kara*]

Kara - I agree that OT will always just result in EW, but when you did EBT to avoid this, it doesn't sound like it was actually much earlier than usual? Did you then get EW, or were you able to resettle?

It wasn't much earlier   All it takes is 15-30 mins to avoid that resistance that an OT baby has and will use to fight bedtime.  I found that getting DD down when she wasn't quite to the crazy tired stage meant that she would literally pass out when I put her down and would stay asleep through the night without an EW... if I put her off until her normal BT, it would just be enough to make her fight and take a while to settle (often she would take 30 mins to go down), so in essence, she would lose an hour of sleep.  If she woke at the same early time, at least she was down earlier and got a little more total sleep overnight, KWIM?

[Jem88]

We had a good night last night!, 3 NWs but i really thought it would be a bad night as she didn't nap well yesterday.(She only had 1 30min nap sunday as she was at my mums so sun night was awful, she was awake every 30mins until 1.00am then didn't settle until 2.55am then was up at 4.30am and then 5.30am for the day. Our routine yesterday was:

5.30am - up for the day.
8.30am - nap A time 3hr.
9.30am - up. 1hr (I normally wake her after 30mins but let her have an hour)pm
1.25pm - nap A time 3hr 55mins (I was out and didn't realise the time and she fell asleep as i was walking home.)
1.45pm - up. up. 20mins (I tried to transfer her into her cot and she woke up and wouldn't resettle.)
5.40pm - Bed. A time 3hr 55mins.

She then woke at 6.10pm, 11.15pm 3.40am and then up for the day at 5.45am.

I'm not sure what naps to do today - I've been doing 30min AM and then letting her sleep for the PM which she normally does 2-2.5hrs. But we've still been getting 3-4 NWs with 1 longest stretch of sleep being 3.5-4hr.

Last night she went to sleep within 2-3mins, but she's been taking 25-30mins to settle down to sleep for the past week and getting OT. I was cuddling/rocking until sleepy then putting her into her cot but 2 weeks ago i've been putting her down into her cot and then standing next to it and she's been going to sleep fine but after playing around for 20-30mins even when she's tired.. But obv she can't of been tired enough to sleep within 5-10mins but then playing around and then ending up OT?
 
As yesterday AM nap and bedtime she was asleep within 5mins or less of me putting her down. x

[clairebear79]

Trimbler - if it helps, at 16 ish months, I had to limit DS's nap to 2hrs max, or we would get EW.  And I think this is probably why your EBT aren't working anymore, b/c he's having too much day sleep/not enough A time to BT.  I think on your 'ideal' routine you posted, a 4.5hr A after a 2.5hr nap will likely be too short. 

For the past couple of months my DS (19 months old today) has been doing a 2hr nap 12.30-2.30 and a 5hr A time to bed at 7.30 & he's got up at 7am.  Now, we're having to start cutting his nap back to 1.5hrs.  I know my DS went to 1 nap a bit earlier than yours, and yours is a little younger, but he's getting towards an age where his sleep needs will start to reduce.  IIWM I would probably try limiting his nap, perhaps start at 2h 15, and trim back to 2hrs if you keep getting EW.

hiya Jem88 - I'll leave you in Kara's hands since I'm already posting on your thread.  Do agree yesterday looked OT but if you are getting EW I think you need to be careful about allowing too long & too early a morning nap.  Putting down at 8.30am will just encourage the EW to continue.  xx

[j.and.e]

ok we movd to 1nap. Tird of 5am starts. Ds2 is 15mo. He only does a short nap thou. I have tried all sorts of times btwn 10am and 1pm. Occasionly he flukes a 2hr nap. Fri we had 5.30am up, nap 12-1.45pm bt 7.30pm. Nw 2.30-3.15am. Sat up 6.30am Nap 12-12.40 bt 6pm. Sun up 5.20am nap 10.50-11.50 nap2 5-5.30 bt 8.15pm Mon up 6am Nap 12.40-2.40 bt 6.40pm (early but he was falling asleep on the floor). Tue up 5.20am Nap 12.50-1.55 bt 7pm. I tried to do a short am nap at 9.30 (after 4hr+ A but he refusd). I tried again at 10am no luck. Out in the car, still no luck! He's sleeping 11-12hrs in 24 and early bed=early wake! Can anyone help! Xx

[Jem88]

Yesterday went like:

5.45am - up. (She was in bed for 6.10pm so this wasn't a bad wake up time.)
8.40am - nap. A time 2hr 55mins.
9.40am - up. 1hr.
1.40pm - nap. A time 3.5hr.
3.00pm - up. 1hr 20mins.
6.40pm - Bed. A time 3hr 40mins.

She slept from 6.40pm - 1.30am (She did stirr and shout out at 8.45pm when my OH came up to bed but she didn't wake up properly).

She was then awake from 1.30am - 3.00am, she wasn't jumping around playing just laying down singing and chatting. She slept 3.00am - 4.45am - Then refused to go back to sleep. x

[clairebear79]

j.and.e. - I'd say he's doing a lot of long A times to nap & his days are pretty long overall so its likely he could be OT.  eg looking at Monday & Tuesday alone, on Monday he did 6h 40 A / 2hr nap / 4hrs A.  I know he was falling asleep on the floor but this is probably b/c he's being pushed too far in the mornings.  If you push him less, he will probably take a consistently better nap, which will help him last the distance til BT.  Also evening up the A times a bit might help your nights lengthen.

I know you fear early bed will = early wake but it really honestly doesn't always!  For us, on 2 naps then yes it probably would.  But on 1 nap, EBT is a lifesaver where OT is involved.

IIWM I would try & work on a more consistent naptime, perhaps 11.30 initially, given the EW.  12 at the absolute latest.  Put him down at the same time every day, and I would probably cap the nap at 2hrs absolute max & shoot for bedtime 5hrs later.  Repeat repeat repeat. By doing some early bedtimes this will eliminate OT & should help his naps to lengthen.  Once his naps have lengthened, and his wakeup time starts to be a little more consistent, then you can work on shifting it all later to get back to the bedtime that you would prefer. 

Jem - that long NW sounds suspiciously like she is UT to me.  I also think that 1h 20 PM nap is indicative of that.  I still think you need to keep working on shifting the AM nap very gradually later, as being so early it will encourage the EW.  But I also think you maybe ought to consider capping it a bit shorter to 45mins, which might get you a longer PM nap.  The A time before the PM nap might need to be reduced a touch.  If you can get a 1.5hr+ PM nap, you would then be able to push BT out a bit in order to help you achieve a later WU.


HTH ladies.x

[j.and.e]

thanks claire. If i do 11.30 nap shud i do 5hrs 2bt even if still early like 5.30pm? Today he did up 5.35 nap 12-2.30 bt pd 6.45 asleep 7.15 (so not quite 5hrs but not far off!) xx

[*Kara*]

That's a great nap!  I would maybe hold those A times for a few days and see if it sticks!

[j.and.e]

:-) so despite a gd day y'day up 5.35 nap 12.00 to 2.30 asleep 7.15 he woke at 5am today. I took him to bed with me and he snuggld and bf until 5.30 then climbd out of bed and went off to play. Do i need to do 8.30 bt to push WU? Xx