Sleep problems again! (15 mo)

[Bex09]

Hi ladies, we are in a right mess with sleep again! I posted the other week about my DD refusing BT and I did get some great advice about trying WI/WO. But nothing seems to be working at the minute and I really need some help and ideas about what is going on here. Here is her usual routine...

wu - 7.00am
A time - 5h 15
Sleep - 12.15 (between 2-3 hrs)
A time - 5h 15
BT - 8.00pm

She had been sleep trained for about 3 weeks and I could finally put her down awake, WO and she would fall asleep on her own. But now it has all gone wrong and I have no idea what is going on. DD is refusing BT and naps now too unless I go back to holding her until she falls asleep. If I put her down awake and WO she cries, I go back in and she is always standing up, then the trouble begins! She will stop crying when I WI but will not lie down and go to sleep, she plays and messes about, this can go on for over an hour, then she is OT. If I PU she absolutely freaks out (I guess because she knows sleep is about to be forced on her!!) So that is my first problem... how can I get her to sleep?

Then we are also getting either long NW (4hrs the night before last) or lots of short NW (12 the other night)! I am exhausted and just have no ideas what to do to sort this out. She was teething and had a failed reflux med wean, but she is back on the meds now (has been for a week) and has no sings of teething at the minute and pain meds do nothing to help. Anyone got any ideas what might be going on? TIA.

[sianie]

Hi there!

The usual culprits when LO's cry when going down for sleeps are; OT/ Pain or discomfort/ Teething/ SA....

Does she have her 1st year molars &/or canines through yet? I only mention this as DS's sleep went up the spout at a similar age & it was mainly due to his molars coming through (even tho we couldn't see anything at the time). It could also explain the NW's you've been getting.

The other issue could be you holding her to sleep, are you having to go back to doing this every sleep time?

She definitely must be very OT with the sleep resistance & NW's, you could try bringing her nap a little earlier to curb the OT?

[AJsMumandDad]

Hi, your situation sounds identical to ours 4 weeks ago.  My DD is 15 mo and was exactly the same.  We've had a month of crazyness where the options were to either let her have extra awake time in the evening (i.e. we gave up on bedtime, brought her downstairs where she would play for another hour or so and we'd wait till she fussed for sleep) or I would rock her to sleep.  We started on the first option but after a few nights she was obviously getting OT and we were feeling robbed of the only bit of time we got to ourselves!  So we'd do the bedtime routine which ended on reading her a story and part way through this she would attempt to get off my lap to play, at this time I would pick her up and rock her and within litterally a minute she'd be asleep (weird!). 

I took her to the Drs near the beginning of this behaviour to check for an ear infection just to be sure and he had a look in her mouth and saw she was cutting a top molar (I was looking out for the bottom ones first!).  They have come through one at a time and have taken at least a week each and have caused her much pain and discomfort (as have all her teeth).  Together with this is the fact that she started walking unaided during this time too so I reckon this caused excitement over her new skills together with SA.  She would not let her dad comfort her at all through this period so I had to deal with all naptimes, bedtimes and NWs. 

Her A times went out the window too - shes similar to your LO - 5ish hours A time either side of her nap but this went to 6 1/2 - 7 hours some days!  She'd still then mostly have a good 2 hour nap and would still keep the same bedtime.

It's been a tough and tiring time and I admit I've resorted to rocking to sleep and then feeding to sleep (I still breastfeed) just to keep some normality to the routine we had but I'm hoping we're coming out the other end now and I'm working on her going to sleep on her own again by putting her down awake and staying with her till she falls off.  The first night she cried hard for 10 mins before going to sleep and last night (second night) was only a minute of crying so I'm hoping it's quicker the second time around!

THis may or may not help you but I thought I'd share it as I had no idea she was cutting teeth and the molars are BIG compared to the size of her little gums.  It is hard work I know and tiring as I say but you'll come out the other end whether its teething or not.

[Bex09]

Thanks Sian and AJsMumand Dad. We have made some progress but also a regression too. She is now back to being held to sleep all the time and I put her down as soon as she falls asleep, which takes minutes. Then last night after this she STTN from 7.30pm until 8.10am!!! She seems to just not be able to fall asleep without me at the minute.

She has cut her two top molars and this happened at the same time as her failed reflux meds wean (just over a week ago now) so the poor little love had a lot going on... no wonder her sleep got messed up. The main issue now really is why this is still going on when she is ok again. I guess she has just needed APing due to the pain etc and now she has formed this habbit again. So... any ideas how I get back on track?

[sianie]

She has cut her two top molars and this happened at the same time as her failed reflux meds wean

Also, reflux is aggrevated by teething so this would have made things worse.

It does sound like her being held has become a bit of a prop, I guess you have 2 options to get her back on track, WI/WO or GW....see links below....if she has previously been an independent sleeper then WI/WO might be better for her, but also LO's temperament comes into play as for spirited/touchy types WI/WO can wind them up more than settle them.

Have a look at the link & let me know what you think.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

[Bex09]

Thanks Sian, yes the doc said that about the teething/reflux too, so she must have been in awful pain and I had to hold her or be with her, whatever she needed to get her through it. Like you say that has now become a prop again, but I couldn't avoid it really.

So now to get back on track I am really not sure which would be best! She had only been an independent sleeper for 3 weeks so not like she had been falling asleep on her own for months. The way I did it last time was GW, but this wasn't working too well as she messes around when I am in the room and I clearly distract her way too much. So one night I WO and she didn't cry and just fell asleep... I was amazed. From then on this is what happened every sleep time and I didn't have any crying at all. Now though the WO isn't working, she stands up and cries as soon as I leave and then I can't get her to lie back down. My DD is VERY spirited and gets really angry and worked up very easily. So really GW would be best but I have a hard job getting it to work! This is why she has never been sleep trained before as nothing ever seems to work for her. I am so upset that after our success at last it has all gone pear shaped. What do you think I would be best doing?

[sianie]

I am so upset that after our success at last it has all gone pear shaped.

Don't beat yourself up, you did what you felt you needed to do & it's nothing that can't be put right! She will cry when she sees you leave the room as she's got used to you being there, but it will be more of a protesting cry if that makes sense?

I guess I would say GW might be a better way to go, although it will take a few nights of being consistent for things to start working. When you tried GW before did you make sure you had no interaction with her? My DD is very spirited too & GW took a few nights to work as she got bored with the lack of interaction & it took less & less time each night for her to go down. Whatever you decide you need to be consistent & stick at it, even though it may be tough to start with.

[Bex09]

Thanks Sian. I would be so greatful if you would told my hand through this, as you have BTDT with a spirited LO. TBH I wasn't really sure what I was doing with the GW so I would put her down awake and keep a hand on her. But she would always get up and try to lie on my shoulder and kiss me (as I was leaning over the cot to keep a hand on her). Should I have sat back out of reach at this point? I did interact as I would tell her to lie down, but she never did! I guess I wasn't doing it right at all!

[sianie]

Of course! 

In a nutshell GW involves putting her in her cot awake and stying with her til she falls asleep, giving her the comfort she needs (shhing, patting etc) but reducing that interaction, contact and proximity night by night until you get to the stage that you are sitting by her door and then eventually she doesn't need you in there anymore. There will be a lot of crying, that's unavoidable, but you will not leave her alone to cry. Does that make sense?

[Bex09]

Thanks so much Sian, that makes total sense yes. On a good note DD is now managing to resettle herself if she NW... Yay!! She STTN again last night for 12.5 hrs!!!! Well she did wake a few times and cried out but then stopped within a second and went back to sleep. So that is a start right?

So with GW I put her down awake, should I then sit back or maybe lie on the floor? Or would I keep a hand on her and pat or rub her back at first? If she stands up I just ignore it and wait until she eventually gets board and gives up is that right? What about when she cries just pat or rub but don't pu at all? sorry for the 20questions!

[sianie]

On a good note DD is now managing to resettle herself if she NW... Yay!! She STTN again last night for 12.5 hrs!!!! Well she did wake a few times and cried out but then stopped within a second and went back to sleep. So that is a start right?

Absolutely!!! Great news!

I would do your usually wind-down routine, put her down when she's sleepy but still awake do you usually pat or rub her back or anything else before she goes to sleep? If you do then I would still do this but the idea is to gradually lessen the amount of time you do this over the course of a few nights. Once she's calm, then move away & sit in a chair/on the floor (I find it's easier to sit with my back to the cot as this lessens the interaction). She's old enough to be able to lie herself back down, so I wouldn't try to do it for her as this will more than likely just wind her up even more. To start with stay in the room until she's asleep, then the following night you could try moving a bit further away from her cot/ less patting or whatever & so it goes. If she is getting upset then you can use your voice to help reassure her from where you are sat, a sleepy phrase or whatever you normally use, but the idea is to keep interaction to a minimum but she can see you are still in the room so won't feel abandoned if that makes sense?

[Bex09]

Thanks so much for your support Sian, really appreciate it, I am just rubbish at sleep training. So... today I put her down for her nap and her BT awake and she stood up straight away. I just sat on the floor next to the cot and didn't interact. If she lay down I rubbed her back but then stopped if she stood up, not sure I should have rubbed her back, I don't normally do this when she falls asleep, but I do for NW if she can't settle herself. Anyway for her nap she stood up for about 40 mins non-stop and then she gave up, lay down and fell asleep, so took 45 mins all in all, no crying at all! Then BT was a bit more tricky, it took about 55 mins but she kept lying down, getting up again, lying down, getting up and so on. She also kept dropping her dummy on to me and throwing her lovey out of the cot and crying for it! So I just picked it up and put it back in the cot, no interaction and she did eventually get bored and fell asleep very quickly once she finally gave in. I tried to rub her back but she moved my hand off her as if to say "I am NOT talking to you leave me alone!" lol. There was some crying but certainly not an 'I need you now cry' more of a grizzle and she stopped as soon as I shushed her. So not too bad I guess for a first day, just hope it doesn't get harder as we carry on.

Just a quick question... if DD should get into a rage cry, which is a really angry, hysterical, bang head on the cot type of meltdown, what do I do?! I really hope this won't happen, but has done before and I end up giving in because the cry is soooo awful. I know I can't PU as this makes her even more hysterical anyway, but I don't think shushing or our sleepy phrase will calm her. Can I stand up and rub her back/pat her ect at this point or not?

[sianie]

Well done, that sounds like it went well! The first few nights are always the hardest but stick at it!

If she becomes very distressed then I would do as you suggested & rub her back etc, although try not to take her out of the cot. I think it's about understanding her cries, she will be a angry & confused to start with as you are breaking a habit & she doesn't understand why, that's why consistency is the key here so she learns what to expect.

[Bex09]

Well Sian... talk about third time lucky! Have just put her down for her nap and did wind down as always, put her in the cot and sat down on the floor, she didn't get up at all, she just lay there and fell asleep!!  I didn't even shush or touch her at all and there wasn't even one bit of crying or even any fussing, it took 5 mins max. I am amazed... TBH I think I could have WO and she would have been ok as she didn't seem to notice I was there.

Really hope we are back on track now and don't have a regression. BT is always harder though so bracing myself for that later. Should I risk WO do you think or just move further away each night? I was thinking if I did WO and she cried I could just return to sitting by the cot again. What would you suggest? Thanks sooooo much again, this is working far better than I had ever thought.

[sianie]

Yay! 

I think I would stick with what you have been doing so far, just until you know she's definitely on track & I wouldn't want you to confuse her by doing something different. If she settles well at BT then you can definitely start to move further away from her cot.....good luck!