8 mo having horrible nws and naps are not good either - what is going on?

[annette.xx]

I didnt stop the NF - he just stopped needing them for a few wks all by himself!! But now he wont settle without a feed - 2 nights in a row now of NF last night was 11.30pm and 3am - and just when I was doing so well!!

strange you should say about thinking you put him down too soon for pm nap cos I have exact same routine today and he didnt seem tired when I put him down for pm nap - well he was rubbing his eyes 15 mins before but he always does that - im guessing I may too get the same 50 min nap as you did! 50 mins for me was always UT with my first (DD) but its always hard to know for sure!! If I get the NW again tonight or shorter pm nap then I am doing 45 min first nap starting tomorrow - I was hoping to hold onto 1hr for as long as possible but looks like he might not need that much now!!

im thinking maybe our LOs just want a longer A to bed so need their sleep pattern changing a bit?

oh and just realised I think the NF may have gone for a while cos I set the am nap time to always be 10am and some mornings he was waking at 7 so 3hrs A but most of the time he was waking at 6.30 so there was alot more A in the day - he was defo alot more cranky on those days but seemed to sleep better for it!!

Is your toddler still napping? mine is but its such hard work getting her to bed at night now I do wonder if I should be starting to drop it?!!

Annette.xx

[*Kara*]

I actively night weaned DD at 4 1/2 months   All i did was reduce the amount in her bottle - she was only taking 5-6 ozs at the time for each feed, so I dropped it to 4 ozs.. then after a few nights, down to 3 ozs... she got really mad the first night at 3 ozs!  After a few nights of that, she stopped waking.  With BF'ing, you just time how long he nurses one night and then reduce by a minute or two every few nights so that he shifts the calories to daytime.  If you have to, PUPD in the end.

50 mins is almost always UT.  I have found with DD that anything that coincides with a full sleep cycle is UT and anything that is in the middle of one is OT... so 45, 90 mins (within a 5 min window assuming LO wakes and doesn't say anything for a few mins) would be UT... something like 20, 30, 110 mins would be OT as baby is unable to get through a cycle without jolting awake.

Today we had
Wake 6:15
Nap 9:15-10:15
Nap 1:30-2:20 (oh poo!)
Bt 6:05

O you think that pm nap was ut? Or ot? He was quite happy even when I took him in. But I think he was ot by bt. He woke 20 mins after bt but then slept for 2 hrs without nws.

Totally the UT/OT loop at the end of the day... that PM nap was for sure UT... I would have done more like 3.5 hrs A time before nap #2... and certainly OT at BT... that would explain the 20 min wake - partial sleep cycle

Is your toddler still napping? mine is but its such hard work getting her to bed at night now I do wonder if I should be starting to drop it?!!

How old is she Annette?

[annette.xx]

shes 2 years 8 months!

Annette.xx

[shresmummy]

Hi ladies, hope your weekends going well.

Annette, my dd just turned 3. She has been mucking up at nap time since she was about 2y9 mo. But it's a long road to nap dropping unfortunately. I wish it were as simple as just deciding she's redy to drop it and hoping she will cope. Now at 3 she will nap several days in a row, then suddenly do a 12 hr night then won't nap for a few days. So there is no real pattern, but I have a few rules that i try to follow. Never do more than a 11.5 hr day. If she has anything more than10 hrs night sleep, but under 11, she will nap. Often after a few days of no nap she relly needs one even if I have force her, and on days like this it's better to do an a nap as early as she will take it, then let her sleep for 1.5 hrs. At the beginning when she started having no nap days she would sometimes do 13 or 14 hr nights. But now after several months of a few no nap days her body must have got used to it and she only does around 12 hrs. Has your dd ever done a no nap day? If you need any more info on what I've noticed with my dd I can send you a pm!!

Today was a very good day for ds, but still a few nws. Wht do you make of this?

Wake 6:30
Nap 9:30-10:45
Nap 2-2:25
Bt asleep by 7:15. It was perfect settlin at bt, but he woke at8:15, then I resettled. He settled quickly but woke again in 10 mins! I have settle him again. Wnder what he will do the rest of the night!

Annette, funnily even my ds wht through a few weeks ago of not needing that night feed by himself. But now I too have started feeding him. Are you still bf? I have a feeling he is not getting full enough possibly fue to my supply. I remember with dd she weaned herself at 10 mo.

[*Kara*]

I was gonna say, I bet the 1-0 is just as much fun as the 2-1 is   Sounds like much of the same - something great to look forward too

Have either of you considered just doing a bottle top up after a bedtime BF?  That way, you don't have to stop BF all together but bubs goes down with a full tummy for sure...

[shresmummy]

I have Kara but he pushes it away as I think he's a bit full. At bt I give him a ebm and he drinks 150 ml 5 oz which is a full feed for him. At 10 pm or when he wakes he has 150 ml of formula and that's again a full feed for him.

[*Kara*]

hmmm... then I don't think it's a supply issue at all...  5 ozs is a small feed at his age though.  How much time is between his last solids meal and BT? 

Alexandra has solids (about 4 ozs of homemade baby food) at 530ish and then drinks a 9 oz bottle at 745pm without hesitation... I'm sure she would take more, but that's all the bottle holds

[shresmummy]

He has dinner around 4:30 then ebm 150 ml around 6:30 or whenever he goes to bed. But even when he wakes up ravenous at the 10 pm feed he only takes around 150 ml.even my dd only took around that much. I have heard that they can tend to take bit less of bm compared to formula though. Or maybe my kids Aren't big eaters!!

What do you make of today? I think I am definitely into nap cutting territory.

Wake 6:30
Nap 9:30-10:55
Nap 2:25 ish - 3:10 ( he was a bit upsetr when he woke. So I don't know if he was ot. But he took a while to go down for his nap though.)

Then I took him in for bt at 6:20 but he took till 6:50 to sleep. But he slept for 1.5 hr, then woke at 8:20 settled with a quick pat,but then again woke in 10 mins. Wonder why he always does that? Anyway let's see how the night goes.

[annette.xx]

Hey ladies

Im still BF for all day and NF - he wont have it any other way!! Im 100% convinced that my NW issues are definately not hunger related more that he wakes cant get back to sleep cos UT then thinks he is thirsty - probably has dry throaght (I always do!!) so screams until I give him it cos its the habit he is used to!! I know he doesnt need it but I am not stopping it until he is 10 months and im more settled into his new 2;1 routine - 9 months is sleep regression and I need to figure out his routine sleep need issues as im convinced its all about timings etc why he is waking so seems unfair to be forcing him back to sleep at night with PD (he wont do patting!!) when maybe he just isnt tired enough - the BF makes him relax more and he can just snuggle with me and take his time until he is sleepy enough to go back down!! Im waaaayyyyy to soft this time round!!!

with me last 2 days he is starting to wake early from his am nap which tells me he is definatley UT - yesterday 45 mins and today just 20 mins but went back to sleep with rocking (I half wonder whether he actually even went sleep in the first place!!)... I really wanted to stick with the 3 hr first A time until nap dropping but hope he doesnt make a habit of waking this early or I will have to stretch it!

my aim is to get to 14 months before dropping to 1 nap cos I remember the nightmares I had last time with DD at any attempts before 14 months and she was much lower sleep needs than DS so it could even be later!!

Annette.xx

[sherry lynn]

Hey Priya - I sent you a PM did you get it? BW was acting weird, I meant to check my sent box, but I forgot. I'll try to do that after this post.

It looks like things are looking up a little bit.

Annette - That's a good plan about the one nap   Both of mine were 14/15 months before they did well on one nap, even if we had days here and there that they decided on their owns that they weren't going to take a nap. But, coped well at about 14-15 months on one nap.

My monkey is in his crib right now not napping because he slept 12 hours last night (after busting his nap yesterday) I should have woken him this morning, but i couldn't bring myself to. He so needed a good sleep.

[*Kara*]

For sure they take less ounces when it is BM - your BM has more calories in it as baby is getting older... But night feeds up to a year or more are totally normal for a BF baby

I don't think you need to cut naps yet - I would try just doing longer A first thing.. push him closer to 3 hrs 15... then you should get a good nap and be able to do 3 hrs 30 min for the next A and see it stretch back out.. then do at least 3 hrs 30 to BT.  Your days will get a bit longer, but that generally happens before the nap cutting starts... you could be in OT land very quickly if you cap naps now.  I tried it and it got ugly fast at that age!

[shresmummy]

Hey sherry, I did get your msg, thanks heaps for that! And I typed out a reply but it took so long to send it I ended up losing it then I got tired and went to bed!

Annette, I too find that I am way too soft this time around! And partly way too tired to try anything else at 2 am! I feel like he also needs it to relax and get to sleep. He kicks up a storm if I offer water. I was also going to go until 10 mo. Although if you look at it in termsof weeks I am there already.

I also find he is starting o resist the 3 hr A time before am nap. He isn't settling as easiily as he used to. I find sometimes he does sleep well though despite monkey business getting down.

Today we had a pretty good day, but still he woke 55 mins after falling asleep at bt. What is his deal!?

Wake 6:10
Nap 9:15-10:15 (had to wake him cos of dr appt)
Nap 1:35-3!!
Bt - he was rubbing away and cranky by 6:15 pm but I only took him in at 6:30. He fell asleep easy, settled himself and everything. But woke up crying 55 mins later. Now I have settled him and I wonder if he will do the wake up in 10 mins again.

I am out of ideas as to why this happens.

Regarding moving to 1 nap, dd was also 15 months before she could handle it well. But wonder if he will get there sooner. I had such a different routine with dd. She was doing 4 hr before am nap. But with him I find it easier if he does the shortest time before am nap. That way I can a least try and coincide their naps in the afternoon.

[shresmummy]

Aaaaauuurrrrggggh! I need to vent 

Seriously I am out of ideas. Today was a good day right? Then what is happening to him at night? These are our nws so far.

Bedtime - asleep by 6:40ish, self settled no dramas
Nw 7:35 settled soon with hug in cot
Nw 8:25 settled by 8:30
Again woke at 8:40 took 10 mins to settle. Had to carry and cuddle.

Is it possible he was tired at 6:15 when he rubbed his eyes and I should have taken him then? Did i push it by taking him at 6:30? But he had a 1.5 hr nap and I didn't wan to get back into the early bed ealy wake cycle.

I dont know at else I can try. Maybe it's something I Can't control?!

[*Kara*]

Going out on a limb here, but I think he might need more A to bedtime after that second nap... if he sleeps for 1.5 hrs, i would push him closer to 4 hours.. it almost sounds UT to me...

[shresmummy]

Not a good day today. He had an ew at 5:30 but I was so out of it, I just fed him and I went back to sleep, but I don't think he did. I could sort of hear him chatting but I wasn't sure if I was dreaming!! I woke at 6 and he was awake.

Anyway, here was our routine

Wake 5:30-6?
Nap 9:05-10:15
Nap 1:35-2:15 but I was able to resettle and he slept from 2:20 ish to 2:40 in my arms
Bedtime took him in at 6:30 asleep by 6:45

Nws have started with the first one at 7:25. I think he was ot right? What do you think was the deal with the pm nap? I thought 3 h 20 min A time was a good guess after a 1h10 am nap??and e settled SO easily for the pm nap I really thought it was going to be a good one.

I wish these nws would end!