8 mo having horrible nws and naps are not good either - what is going on?

[shresmummy]

Hi, my ds is 8 months old and has never sttn yet! He used to be a chronic short napper up until a month back when thing started getting a bit better on the nap front and we háve essentially dropped the catnap. But our nights have just gone from bad to horrendous and I can't for the life of me figure out how to sort this out. Is it teething related? Routine related? Or just developmental? I can't tell anymore. His nights used to be better than they are now.

As luck would have it our routine regarding naps has also fallen apart in the last week and I suspect it is A time related. And I wonder if that is also impacting on our nights somehow. Can someone please help me out of this mess?

Here is our routine from a week ago when naps were better. I should also mention that anywhere from a 1h10 to a 1h20 min map is a good one for him. He very rarely does a 1.5 hr nap.

Wake 6:15ish
E bf upon waking and solids at 8am
A 6:15-9:15 (3hrs A time)
S 9:15-10:30 or sometimes 10:35 rarely till 10:45

E bf after waking around 10:30 and solids at 11:30/11:45
A 10:30-1:20/1:30 (used to be just under 3 hrs A time, sometimes 3 hrs)
S 1:20/1:30 - 2:30ish (he only usually does a 1h10 min pm nap)

E bf around 2:30 and solids at 4ish and bottle of ebm at 5:45 before bed
A 2:30-5:45
S 5:45/6pm early bt

Night feeds used to be around 10:30 pm he wakes, then again around 2 ish, then 5:30 am

I am stuck in a ridiculously early bt cycle because his naps are not perfectly 1.5 hrs.

The problem with the nws are as follows. He almost always wakes anywhere from 30-45 mins after falling asleep around 6 ish. I have to resettle then he used to sleep better for about 1.5 hrs Then would have another brief wake and I would resettle until he woke for a feed around 10:30. He would always settle immediately after a feed and sleep till thenext feed. Then in the morning I usually feed him back to sleep at 5:30.

For the past 3 weeks he has been waking every 45 mins to an hour or so in the early part of the night, wanting a feed around 9:15 pm rather than 10:30/11 and he refuses to resettle any other way. He is genuinely hungry because he has a full feed. but he also takes nearly 20 mins or so to resettle at every other wake before that. It used to take just seconds.

As of last week his pm nap has also become short. He is taking longer to fall asleep, then wakes after 35 mins into the nap. I can't resettle him either. As a result e is having massively long A time before  bt at 5:45. He refuses a cn these days too. He goes to bed very easily at 5:45 but then we have all the nws. I am sure they are ot related.

How should I fix this mess? Is it a matter of tweaking the day routine? Do I need to up the A time?He is 33 weeks. Or is it teething related perhaps? He has no teeth yet.

I am so exhausted and am running out of ideas! Can someone please help me out? Thanks in advance!

[shresmummy]

Hi Jane thanks for your reply. I have tried pain meds for a few days but it made no difference so I stopped. I also had a look at the A time link you gave me and I think he is doing ok but I can't say for sure anymore! He is 34 weeks actually and was doing really well on 3 hrs but lately I cannot figure I out no matter how hard I try.

Here is my sleep routine from the past few days and the nws. Does anything jump out at you?

Sunday
Wake 5:30! (normally he doesn't ew but dd was sick so he also got woken up)
Nap 8:30-10 (3hrs A time)
Nap 12:35-1:45 (was rubbing eyes and fussy so i put him down at 2.5 hrs A time. I heard him stir a few times but he self settled)
Bedtime 5:50 (This is way too long of 4hrs A time but e refused cn)
Nws - 6:25, 7:15, 8:15, 8:45 refused to settle without feed, 12:20, can't remember! But I know he woke at 4:30 fed and up at 6 m

Monday
Wake 6
Nap 8:55-10:25 "( 3hrA time)
Nap 1:15-1:45 woke and i resettled then slept 1:55-2:30 (2h45 min)
Bedtime tried at 5:45 but he didn't settle easily. Finally only slept at 6:20
Nws "6:50, 7:05, 7:40, "8:25 but then slept till 9:45 fed and went back to sleep easily. It s now 10:30 pm.

I have ben noticing that the past few days even if he has a good morning nap of "1.5 hrs he shows tired signs ,by 2hrs 15 min A time. Surely that seems odd? On Sunday I put him down at just under 2.5 hrs A time and he slept for 1h10 mins and I heard himin between. But he self settled. Today I tried to push it out a bitbecuse I thought surely after 1.5 ,hr nap he should be able to do more? But he woke up in between the nap.

Is it odd he is wanting such a short A time before the pm nap? How can I stretch the day out so he isn't doing 4 hrs A ime before bed? And do you think it's weird that he took much longer to go to bed tonight when I tried at 3 h10 minA time?

[annette.xx]

hey priya

im right there with you - almost identical NWs!!! reading along with interest!!

Annette.xx

[shresmummy]

Hey Annette! That is unbelievable. Do you think our Los communicate somehow? I am going out of my mind with these nws.

What do you think of the weird need to cut down on the A time before the pm nap? Remember how h was doing ""3-3-3 so well?

[annette.xx]

I think for me its more activity - he is learning his crawling skills and trying to pull up on anything he can so think he is soooo tired - plus my little guy has had 4 teeth through within 1.5wks!! its almost like he needs 3 naps to spead the sleep but then that gives me EW so thats a no go! I tried pushing A out a little today and it took me 4 lots of resettling after bedtime every 15 mins!!!

I think after a longer last A the reason we get a slightly better start to the night is that they are just sooooo OT that they go into a dead sleep...

maybe its all developmental and they will go back to normal - I really do think my DS has no more than 3hrs A time so I KNOW for me its OT from somewhere - problem is that I cant cut A time without going to 3 naps cos if he goes to 2hrs 45 A (about perfect for him at the mo!) then he will take too much sleep total cos bedtime would be too early so would leave me with an EW!!

We are having a day out tomorrow so he will probably have 3 short naps so im hoping this might work out ok!

Annette.xx

[shresmummy]

Oh gosh today turned out a royal mess. The past few days I was doing 3-2.5-4 until n early bt because I think he was in an ot cycle. He was napping well for the am nap but needed another nap soon by 2.5 hrs. Then he napped fr about 1h10 mins but refused a cn so ended up ot by bed anyway. Today he woke early and the whole day was a mess.

Wake 5:30
Nap 8:35-9:55
Nap 12:50-1:15 yikes! (he rubbed his eyes around that 2.5 hrs mark at 12:30 so I took him up. He took ages to settle but was still rubbing his eyes and acting v tired. But I think this was a case of starting out ut and ending up ot?)

Nap 3:15-3:35 ish (it was very hard to get him to cn. I couldn't really do it any later or it would have messed up bt. He woke on his own after around 15-20 mins)

Bedtime I tried at 5:45 but he took till 6:15 to settle. Then he interestingly slept for 1 hr and I just resettled him t 7:20 pm. Wonder how the night will go.

The A time before the am nap seems to be reasonable. But it's the next one I can't seem to nail. Any idea as to what to try tomorrow?

[sherry lynn]

*hugs* I don't have time to read yet, but I wanted to mark this so I remember to come back since the other link is done   I hope today (tomorrow) goes better.
Do you think Aping has anything to do with the night wakings?

[*Kara*]

Okay, I have had a quick read.   I think he needs an A time increase again. 

He is still taking shorter than needed naps and then ends up in an UT/OT cycle... causing all the NW and now the EW.  Though, it should be mentioned that an EW doesn't relate to the time on the clock, but less than 10 hrs of night sleep.  So, if he is in bed at 6pm and wakes at 530, it is not an EW.  Just a crappy start time

I would push his morning A out to 3 hr 15 mins and see what nap results... give it at least 3-4 days to have an effect... his body will have to adjust and this takes a bit of time.  He is going to be really sleepy but keep him up!  If he gives you a nap more than 90 mins, push his second A time to 3 hrs 15 mins... a 4 hr A to BT is not unusual at his age...

[j.and.e]

I have already had 7 or 8 Nws and its only 9oclock! Am going to bed now! Good luck ladies, may the little ones sleep all nite and wake us up singing at a time that starts with a 7. We can dream! Xx

[annette.xx]

Hi there again

been looking at my DDs sleep threads from when she was 8 months (all that time ago!!) and now it has become clear that all this madness is definately a need for either increasing A time or cutting am nap - at 8 months I chose to cut am nap - sherry you was actually helping me with this if you remember??!!!!!! I was already at 45mins/1 hour capping of am nap and by 9 months it went mad again and I was capping at 30 mins am nap!!

so 3 choices for us are either push out to 3hr 15 A time and get a long nap of 1.5hrs then do same again get another long nap then same A to bed - with this option the day does get longer and night sleep shorter once it hits 13.5hr then definately need to cut naps somewhere!!

would look like this;
wake 7(we wish!!)
nap 10.15 - 11.45
nap 3 - 4.30
bed 7.45

or push A time to 3hr 15 long 1.5hr nap then 3hr 15 and shorten the second nap to 1hour and cut last A time by 15 mins to bring it in as a shorter day then as you push day out with each months increase in A times the first nap stays long and second nap gradually gets pushed out by cutting it (may happen naturally or we may have to wake)

would look like this;
wake 7
nap 10.15 - 11.45
nap 3 - 4
bed 7

or option 3 is cutting am nap and keeping first A time shorter at 3hrs - so starting by cutting am nap to 45 mins then normal full 3hr 15 A time after then long nap of hopefully longer at least 1.5hrs then full 3hr 15 last A time plus the 15 mins missed from before first nap will make it 3hrs 30 last A...

would look like this;

wake 7
nap 10 - 10.45
nap 2 - 3.30
bed - 7

does any of that make sense? Im half tempted by doing long am nap this time round cos my angel baby is one of those babies that very very rarely refuses a nap so im sure I would get him down for a pm nap still - but im also thinking Ive been there done that with short am nap so maybe experience would make this an easier option?!!!

I started day at 5am this morning so my day is pretty ruined already!

Annette.xx

[shresmummy]

Hi ladies, hope everyone is having a better day or night than yesterday! We all seem to be in the same boat and annette I was also reading my old posts from when dd was this age and you're quite right. And sherry helped me too! We were also doing 3h15 mins. But I had the luxury of staying at home to get good naps. Now with the school run I think I'll have to o option 3. With dd I did option 1.

Today we muddled along somehow but with two 1 hr naps.

Wake 6:30 (praise the lord. But he was up from 4:45-5:30 and I fed back to sleep)
Nap 9:25-10:30 (woke happy)
Nap 1:25-2:25 (he was quiet and a bit clingy at 1:15 so i took him in. He fussed heaps took ages to settle and finally slept t 1:25. Was that ut I wonder?)

Bedtime - tried since 5:40 but he was probably ot by then. He fussed heaps and slept only at 6:10.

Nws - 6:50, 7:40, 8:40 then surprisingly he has been sleeping and it's now 10:15. I am baffled as to how come he hasn't woken for that weird 9- something feed??!

I think my options at this point are to kep the am A time at around 3 hrs. Then see how long he naps. I am guessing it'll be around a hr or 1.10. Then I really have to get thenext A time right because this is where I m running into trouble and he is getting ot by the end of the day.

What should I aim for tomorrow do you reckon? If I get a 1 hr nap then try taking him in only at 3hrs A time for the pm nap? And if I get more than an hour for the am nap?

[shresmummy]

It was another day of along am short pm nap, but our night has been the best in ages??

Wake 6:25
Nap 9:20-10:35 (woke on his own happy)
Nap 1:35-2:20 (he started acting tired around 1:25 so I took him in. He rubbed his eyes like crazy and settled fairly easily. But woke in 45 mins. Initially crying but refused to resettle end started chatting and was happy)

I tried to ap a 10min cn at 4:45 (after 2.5 hrs but he was determined not to) so I gave up.

I did bt at 5:35 and he took till 6 to settle but then he slept for 1.5 hrs no waking! For the first time in forever. He had 2 brief nws so far at 7:30 then 8:30.

I am not sure what all this means. I think he needs an A time increase but at which point in the day? That pm nap just doesn't seem to want to lengthen! He did look tired at 3 hrs A time when I took him in but it didn't result in a long nap unfortunately. Is it worth increasing it some more?

[*Kara*]

Increase his first time to 3 hr 10 min and the second closer to 3 hr 20 min   Provided of course that the first nap is decent!

[shresmummy]

Pm was a no go today too unfortunately. Morning nap was great though. He slept for 1.5 hrs after a barely 3 hr A time. He confuses me so much!

Wake 6
Nap 8:55-10:25
Nap 1:45-2:30 (he was fine until 1:25ish when he started rubbing his eyes HEAPS and fussing. So I took him in. He took till 1:45 to settle but only slept 45 mins!

Again I ran into the same problem. I took him into bed at 5:35 ridiculous!! He is still not settled and is nearly 6. I am bf to sleep now!

Basically today's pm A time was nearly 3h20 min right by the time he fell asleep? Or should I have taken him in at 3 hr20 minsA time?

But funnily he was reasonably happy after the pm nap until about 5:15 when he firstrubbed his eyes. But now he has taken till nearly 6:10 to settle.it almost seems no point taking him in at 5:35 for a super early bt!

Aaaaugh!! He is driving me batty! What should I try tomorrow?

[shresmummy]

He tends to need a short wind down and if the A time I right he used to fall asleep within 5 mins.

Just wanted to add that funnily enough once again the early nws have been much better tonight. He slept for 1.5 hrs again after finally settling at 6:10 pm. Had nws at 7:40, 8:30 and again at 8:40 now he seems tobe settled.