Please help! Really messy evenings and nights

[beckygatt]

DD2 is 16 weeks old. We usually aim for a BT around 8pm and for a while she was settling quite easily, waking at around 2 am for a feed and then around 6. Sometimes she even gets a longer stretch. Recently though I put her down for bed and she's up around 45mins later wiggling and arching and just wide awake! I try to resettle her but its generally hopeless and the only thing I can do is bring her out of the room again for a while (otherwise I might end up in there for a couple of hours, plus DD1 is also in the room and would wake up). I don't think she's waking up from hunger, though I'll often end up feeding at some point to try and resettle. I think it may be gas sometimes or possibly UT/OT? Sooner or later I'll get her back to bed but again she might wake after 3-4hrs and I'm not convinced its hunger, as I know she can go for longer. But again I'll feed just in case  and to keep her quiet. Its really frustrating because I know she can do longer stretches; she's even done a few 9hr stretches at night. I don't know why she's waking up and having trouble settling at bedtime.

Any ideas?

[beckygatt]

This evening I put her to bed at 8, she was up at 8.45 squirming and fussing, did a poo, fed again at 9.30, put her back to bed at 10.30, and she woke again squirming and crying at 11.30! Now at 11.45 I'm feeding again, though I don't see how she can be hungry. What is going on?!! And how can I fix it? Its so frustrating not to mention tiring.

[beckygatt]

This was yesterday's EASY:
A - 8.15
E - 9am
S - 10 (couldn't get her down before then)
A - 11.30
E - 12pm
S - 1
E - 3
S - 4 (in car)
A - 4.30
E - 5.45
E - 7.20
S - 7.30
A - 8.15
E - 8.30 (out of desperation, though she did seem hungry)
S - 10.30
E - 12.30
S - 12.45
E - 5.30
S - 6
A - 9.45
E - 10.15

She uses a paci to sleep and usually has a feed right before BT but otherwise doesn't feed to sleep.

[beckygatt]

Anyone?

Evenings are still really long! I know she's tired, I wind her down until she seems relaxed and sleepy, but then when I put her down she starts flailing and lifting her head (tummy sleeper) and looking around! Eyes wide open! She just can't seem to relax

[beckygatt]

I aim for 1.5hrs A time. Paci is a bit of a prop I think, I'm thinking might be time to wean. She has actually just found her thumb so maybe she'll start to self soothe with it... I use shh pat sometimes,  not sure if it works on her though. We have white noise from the fan/AC at the moment. I also have a white noise machine that needs fixing.

[*Becky*]

her days look quite good tbh, way better than hours nap wise. Am just thinking the last A could be the problem. Did she go from 4.30-7.30pm after a half hour nap? That would be way OT here....

[clazzat]

I think that you might be suffering from too short a's in the morning which are resulting in a lack of sleep in the afternoon leading to ot at bedtime. X shows tired signs after 1h45 in the morning, and if we put him down then he gives us a 30 minute nap, but if we stretch him for another 5-10 minutes we get over an hour - so I wonder she is still stuck on her old a time and showing you sleepy signs, but would actually managed a bit longer if you pushed her a little. I know that you are still getting a good first nap, but I remember with dd2 that we would still get a good nap if ut, but it mucked up the rest of the day.

In my experience, waking 45 minutes after bedtime is always ot, and I agree with becky that a 30 minute nap between 4.30 and 7.30 would not be enough. Incidentally, our day is still 11ish hours, so x is normally in bed by 6.15, sometimes 6.30, when he wakes at 7.

As for the dummy, it might be becoming a prop, but if she is finding her thumb then you might be able to push her to get rid of it. We took the dummy away from x yesterday because our nights were getting ridiculous, and it has spurred him on to find his thumb and he went down independently without even squeaking this evening - he put his thumb in his mouth as I laid him in his crib.

[*Becky*]

clare - just out of interest how would you settle x now if he wakes in the night? Are you ssh patting?

[beckygatt]

I should point out that the routine is far from consistent. Some days we have a day of really short naps. I'm posting todays EASY too. Her day started late cos she had a late night.
E - 10am
S - 11.30
A - 12.15pm
E - 12.30
S - 1.45
A - 2.30
E - 2.40
S - 4.15
E - 5.30
E - 7.30
S - 7.40
A - 8.30
Its now 9.30pm and she's still awake. I know she might sleep if I feed again but I'm reluctant to get into that habit.

[beckygatt]

Aaargh! She's driving me crazy!! I just gave her a feed (9.30) she slept on me and was nice and relaxed, then the moment I put her down she started thrashing about and fussing, which eventually turned into crying! Until very recently when she was tired she would just relax with paci and drift off. What's changed?!

[clazzat]

It really does look like you are in a ut/ot loop. I would try stretching her a little for her first a to see what happens. Your evening tonight sounds very ot to me - that was always what led to the settling nicely to sleep on me and then thrashing around when put down. Hope she gives in soon!

Becky - I only actually had to settle him twice last night as all the other times he settled himself. He has something called a gentle giraffe (http://www.firebox.com/product/2593/Gentle-Giraffe) which we have been using for ages and I turned it on and stroked his head until he calmed down and sucked his thumb. The first time took about 30 minutes, the second about 15.

[clazzat]

Incidentally, I have always found that the last a of the day has to be the shortest, even if the day has gone well, so the fact that yours was the longest at 2h10 could be contributing to the problem.

[beckygatt]

Thanks a lot for the help! What would you suggest in terms of A times? I had tried making the last A time longer because I heard at some point babies need to double A time in the evening. I read about some people who got good results with a 3hr A before bed

[clazzat]

At the moment - although our days aren't perfect by any stretch! - we tend to end up with about 1h45 for the first a which gives us a short nap, but we are generally heading out by that point so we go with it, and then between 2 and 2.5 h for the next a which gives us a 2ish hour nap, and then 1h45 until his final nap. His last a of the day is about 1h30, and if he is in bed at 6.30 that's a late night!

I think that if you have a baby that copes well with ot then you can get away with a long last a and they are so exhausted they stay asleep, but my girls have been very typical in their reaction to ot and I never got away with it. X seems to cope better with being ot, but I suspect that is just practice from being dragged around everywhere since day one!

Given that you have been working with about 1h30, I would think that trying 1h45 would be the next step - even if she is ready for a longer a you don't want to push it too hard as it takes them a bit of time to adjust.

[beckygatt]

Yes I will try that tomorrow. What do you do after a short nap though? This is so crazy!! Its 11.20 and she's still up! No AP is working and when I take her in the dark she just screams! Also she sometimes seems to be calming down sucking her thumb then suddenly will start screaming