Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #18

[ZacsMumme]

I tend to be tougher and much less terrified of OT than Sara

LOL so true! I have a touchy wee man. Melissa if your LO copes ok with OT then you can probably push more as Kara says

[Smurfette]

Holy smokes! I must have a super touchy baby then!!! Lol!

I think I have found the answer that is working for me! Knock on every piece of freakin' wood that you have, but we have had solid naps and STTN since I started 9am and 1pm naps, which is essentially that '2-3-4' thing that I've heard other ppl talk about.
Of course DD woke a bit earlier today so it was more like 3-3-4 but I have finally seen the light and realized that probably most, if not all our EWs and NWs are a combination of 1) OT  (I just read a statistic that it's only around 50/50 for babies under 15 months to be on one nap, so I thought, what the heck am I doing? Why am I pushing this?)
and 2) not having an independent/self soother on our hands.

I have been doing GW and have come to the realization that almost every form of sleep training involves babies crying. Whether you're there in the room or not, there is going to be some crying. I was so scared to let her cry that I've probably made her loose several days worth of sleep in the past year.

You know how Tracy talked about not picking up on the mantra cry? Yeah, well, I guess I missed that part.

Today DD was OT going to sleep (Really? less than 3 hrs after a 45 min nap? Good gosh, I was pushing her close to 5.5 last week!!!!!) and of course she woke after 35 mins. Dh did his thing, she cried for a few mins, went back to sleep, woke in 5 mins, cried again, less this time, and then went back to sleep for another 50 mins! Hallelujah!!!!!! It's taken me a freakin year to realize that she will go back to sleep if we just LEAVE her. LOL

*smack to the head*

I should've gone straight to PU/PD now, in retrospect, probably would've been quicker than GW, but again, scared of crying.

So this is the road I'm going to continue on.
After re-reading BWSAYP, I realize that Tracy said that LOs need to wake later (her example is of a boy waking at 6 am) in order to make it to 1 pm. Again, I guess I missed that. I also saw that she said most babies will start to take a 45 min nap in the morning, and I realized that she was talking about having a nap around 9 or 9:30.
Even in the description on page 284, when she talks about how to transition them, she bases it on a 9:30 morning nap time.  So, I figure she was kinda talking about a set nap time anyways and I've never done that. I've always changed things according to DD's WU time and there has been no consistency in our days.
Ok, so I'm rambling but it's only b/c DD went to sleep and I have time! Lol.
Sorry for the long post.
I hope I have not just jinxed myself by sharing my good news, lol!

[*Kara*]

Smurfette - I used the 9am and 1pm nap idea for a while with DD... It was an 8am/1pm for a bit too... both worked really well for us.  From 5.5-7 months, I got 2 hour naps twice a day and 10 hour nights.

You know, I have noticed that DD does get a bit fussy around 930am most days... maybe I should go back to it as well?? 

The whole idea comes from a circadian rythym theory... babies are naturally more tired between 8/10am.. and then again 12/2pm... you just have to find your baby's natural tired window... it should be the same each day within a 15 min window... there is quite a bit of this info in the Weissbluth book - Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child.  Granted, that's the only good info in that book   Unless you want to let your kid scream until they pass out of course... bleck.

Melissa - I should have mentioned that Z is a very touchy little creature and does not do well at all with OT

[ZacsMumme]

The 9/1 set naps also work well if you don't have chronic EW....well it works for some, but not us (typical) as Smurfette says though you just have to find what works for you, all babies are so different. I NEVER thought we would be at 1 nap now. I used to work so hard to get good naps...In the end it affected our nights because Z was LSN...something I did not know until later on and like Kara mentions he needs to go down when he is ready too or he is rubbish OT. It's just finding those strange quirks that work for your LO that is hard sometimes. Once you get that perfect A time and window for naps and BT everything else will follow

[lily528]

I try a 4 hr A b4 the CN..which is usually after a 1hr 15 min nap...we were doing well on a 10 and 3nap schedule I dunno. She is 13 mos old..i dont WANT 1 nap but all this pm nap refusal made me wonder..but maybe i am just getting the time wrong? What is this 2 3 4 your are talkng about?

[lily528]

Smurfette...your lucky my dd wont go back to sleep...I have tried that many times..how much time did you let pass?

[clairebear79]

Melissa - 2,3,4 is a sleep routine where you do the first nap roughly 2hrs from wakeup, the 2nd nap roughly 3hrs after the first nap & BT is 4hrs after that.  So your routine might look like:

wake: 7am
A = 2hrs
Nap: 9-10am
A = 3hrs
Nap: 1-3pm
A = 4hrs
BT: 7pm

Does that make sense?  Obviously as LO's get older not all of them will need 3hrs of daytime naps or sleep 12hrs at night, but the idea as Kara said is it fits in with babies circadian rhythms.  I so wish I had known about this before all our EW started at 5.5months b/c it might have saved us whole heaps of trouble!  I also used it when DS was 7-8(ish) months old & it did work a treat until his daytime sleep needs started to reduce.

I actually think your LO is in a very similar place to mine atm (that's why I popped back on this board).  Similar age, both nap resisting, both starting to wake earlier. 

His WU has gotten earlier since we tried to make the jump to 1 nap & he is currently very very OT.  But whenever we reinstate 2 naps it is immediately difficult to get him to sleep.  He has been fighting his PM naps also, even if AM nap is capped.  Today we got a 5am WU & decided to do like Smurfette & do 9am nap for 45mins & then a PM nap around 3.5hrs later capped at 1.5hrs.  He was OT at his AM nap & then when I PD for his PM nap he fought it & sounded like he was UT.  He finally slept at 3h 45A time (after being in bed for 25mins), & slept 1h 15min with a WU at the 40min mark.  I think this was an UT nap. 

So....I think it may be time for us (and possibly you) to admit defeat with the 2 nap business & try & get a 1 nap routine rolling.  We are not starting from a good place though as DS is currently very OT and he is EWing at 5am.  I think I'm just going to have to ride the OT wave.

[Smurfette]

LOl...don't consider myself lucky...it's been a loooonng road.
We let as much time pass as it took for her to go back to sleep. In the book Kara is talking about, he says to leave them until an hour is up, so if DD wakes at the 35 min mark from a nap, then you leave them until the hour is up so you can keep the next nap time. ( To be fair, he doesn't only advocate CIO, or what he calls ' extinction' he also says how to do the GW method. Kinda lets parents choose what's right for them.)

B/C I was also doing GW, I was at the point of talking to her through the door, so although she was complaining/mantra crying, I just said to her 'you're ok, go back to sleep'.
The 2nd time I didn't even get upstairs and she put herself back down.
At night time, there is no limit. The first time it took us 50 mins, but she was walking around the crib, then would cry to get our attention (this was still when we were in the room), the next day when we were out the door it was 20 mins, for the pm nap and that night (harder crying, that broke my heart)but she then she was quiet until 3. At 3 I was on autopilot and went in to her room, laid her down, she stood up, I said our key phrase and she went to sleep until 5:30. At 5:30 I didn't go in or talk to her, it took her about 3-5 mins and she went back to sleep until 6:50.
The next night she kinda complained for a few mins and that was it and woke at 6:30.

Last night there was no protest, and I didn't have to talk to her through the door and she slept until 7:10 this morning from a 7pm bt! I can't remember the last time we had 12 hrs like that! It's like the old days before we moved and she learnt how to sit up/stand! Lol!

2-3-4 is I guess kinda what it works out to if you're doing naps at 9ish and 1 ish, assuming your LO wakes around 7. Then you put them down around 9, so that works out to about 2 hrs. That Happy Child book says that a nap of an hour or more is restorative enough. If it's less than an hour and they don't go back to sleep, then bring up the next nap time a bit earlier.
So yesterday DD only slept 45 mins, so she was a bit OT by the time 1 rolled around b/c I never brought up the naptime cause I was scared it was going to be too early in the afternoon for  a PM nap. But it took her 35min to fall asleep but she just played by herself and walked around the crib. But then she did a 35 min nap and DH went up, like I said in my earlier post.

Dunno, it seems to be working for us. I feel like I finally have a child who is sleeping!
 If/when she gets to the point of refusing the am nap, then and only then am I going to start tinkering around with her nap times again. I'm going to let her lead the way instead of me pushing her.

[lily528]

I considered this 2 3 4 but at 13 mos old would that work?  Is this more for younger babies?  Today is tough cause dd woke ate 6:15..I went in and nursed and she started falling asleep so I went with it and put her in the crib...she slept til 7:45!  Wow...so I am a bit lost on naps..I tried to put her down at a little more than 2 hrs after reading about the 2 3 4 and she all but laughed at me and it didn't feel right so I pulled her out and she is happily playing now...we are at 3 hr A now...and its 10:45...guess my plan is to just watch her....my gut says its the 2-1 here just based on the pm nap refusals and her seemingly happy and active most of the day...plus she has FINALLY been sttn on a consistent basis and no more EW's for the past few days...she slept 13.5 hrs last night with that going back to sleep this morning...so thinking she is well rested think I will try for 12?....that's 4 hrs 15 min A...gonna watch her though...see how it goes...what do u all think?

[clairebear79]

Definitely give it a whirl.  If she's been doing 4hrs A up to now, try 4h 15 for a good week & see where it gets you.  If naps are still short then try 4.5hrs & so on.  Gosh I ought to take my own advice.  LOL!

[lily528]

Her nap is usually 1-1.5 so if she is gonna refuse the pm that one nap HAS to get longer....you think it just will overtime?  Anything I can do? At 1-1.5 hrs should I do EBT?  What length of nap can I do a reg BT?  I would like to see something like this...

7 am WU
12pm nap (2-2+ hrs)
7pm bed

Not working out just yet cause her nap is still so short any ideas?
those times aren't exact but basically I am looking for 1 long midday nap (only because she flat out refuses that 2nd nap no matter what I do) with a 7ish BT cause this 6 pm BT is sometimes difficult to work around

[Smurfette]

Melissa-take a look at that book for all the info there is in there. There is way more than what I've written. He talks about EWs and nap switches too. I read over the 5-12 month chapter and the 13-? Whatever it is, can't remember.

Its all based on research, so it's not like it's being pulled out of the sky. The first time I read the book, I didn't use any of it, but that was when she was a bewborn and all the facts and figures overwhelmed me.
Our DD was doing 4+ hours A time too, and now she is easily going back to sleep after 2+ hrs of 1st A...so... dunno what else to say.

Ultimately you have to do what's right for you. I knew in my heart that there was something wrong with DD chronically waking at 5:30, so this is what's right for us.

[clairebear79]

LOL that's the exact routine I would like to see too!!!

When you did that 1 nap day the other day with a 5hr A, what nap length did you get?

 Once her A times get to 5hrs ish she should start doing the long naps.  You will probably need to consistently keep to the 5hrs A for a couple of weeks (I have recently been told maybe even 3-4wks) for the routine to set in, & then the long naps will come.  Until then you may get horrible short OT naps.  In the mean time you just be consistent, & either AP a CN if the nap is a bust or she is getting a bit OT, or do early BT.  God I really wish I could take my own advice!!!

If the 1 nap day the other day gave you a short OT nap then TBH I would start as I said above & do 4h 15mins or 4h 30 A for a week, then increase it to 4.5hrs & then 4.75hrs & so on until you are getting the long nap you need.  In the mean time could you try taking her in the car late afternoon for her CN & keep it really short, maybe only 10-15mins to tide her over to BT  Would she sleep in the car rather than in her cot???  I find DS will refuse a CN in the cot but will sleep much more easily in the car.

In fact now I have written all of this I think its exactly what I am going to do too.  I can't start tomorrow or Tuesday b/c DS is in daycare (and so will probably EW through being OT by wednesday LOL!!!) but I can hold your hand if you like?
xx

[lily528]

?Yes even at the 5 hr A she did 1 hr 20 mins....haven't seen a nap longer than that pretty much ever from her expect a handful of times months ago....sigh I am torn on whether to try 2 3 4 or take her to 1 nap....deep down I really would like 2 naps a day and wonder if my timing is just off cause she truly seems tired...if she takes a bottle she gets all droopy eyed but then screams in her crib....she NEVER sleeps in the car I wish I could at least have that to fall back on :/  so at 4 hr A and she is happy as a clam eating lunch and watching a dvd...plan to nap when she is done...wish I could know what is better for her...not too long ago I was getting two 1.5 hr naps a day....no idea what happened

[lily528]

So down at 12:15...played for 20 mins and finally fell asleep!  So was 4 hrs 45 min A by the time she fell asleep...