started PD with 14 month old...what now??

[larren]

Hi all!  My previous post http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=217718.0

I started PD with my almost 14 month old on Monday.  I think DS has taken to it well considering the amount of accidental parenting we've done.  But now that PD has been established, I have some questions I'm hoping could be answered, pretty please  :

- when putting DS down for naps/BT, he rolls around/plays/talks for about 30 minutes before he settles down and tries to sleep. I was wondering what I'm suppose to do during all of this? Do I sing lullaby's, allow him to play, put my hand on his back, leave the room? What's going on now is I'm hanging over his playpen the entire time it takes him to fall asleep...which brings me to my next question...

- at what point can I just plop him in his playpen and leave the room for him to fall asleep completely on his own?

- when doing PD, I rub his back/stroke his hair, sing lullaby's, talk soothingly at the same time...will this bite me in the butt later on because he will have to be weaned from the singing and touching?

I feel so guilty..I just want him to start sleeping well..I've deprived him of 14 months of good sleep!!



Our routine has started to vary since starting PD but I hope that's normal...
7:00/7:45am - wake up
7:30/8:00am - breakfast
9:30am/10:00am - first nap usually 1 hr-1.5 hrs (wakes once at 30min mark, PD back to sleep with not much effort)
12:00pm - lunch
2:30pm/3:00pm - second nap usually 30 min-40 min (wakes usually at 30min mark, I attempt PD for 30-45min but he has never gone back to sleep...even before PD, his 2nd nap has not usually exceeded 30 mins)
4:30pm/5:00pm - dinner
5:30pm - get ready for bed (wash up, change into PJs, read)
6:00pm - into playpen where he rolls around
6:40pm - around the time he usually falls asleep




Any tips or advice would greatly help!!! Thank you so much

[Roseii]

Hiya, don't fell guilty! You're trying to fix things
Is he sttn?
The thing is, this is a huge transition for him so whereas I would normally say just sit by the cot, no contact, I actually think you're doing the right thing. Maybe you could try putting him in then one lullaby whilst you rub his back, then sit next to him just repeating your sleepy phrase as necessary? Yes there is bound to be more crying but you're not abandoning him, he knows you're there for him. Then you gradually need to inch towards the door, the idea being you wean off the rubbing/singing to just being in the room. So actually no PD anymore, he has to figure that out himself. Like I say the crying is inevitable but these aren't no-cry solutions, you just never leave him crying yk?
Also have you ever tried capping that am nap at 30 mins (seeing as he wakes anyway) and doing a longer pm nap?
X

[larren]

Since beginning PD on Monday, DS has only sttn last night --slept at 6:40pm, had a NW at 11:15pm but I was able to settle him easily, woke at 5:50am..I tried PD until 7am but he did not go back to sleep.

I went with your suggestions and sang & rubbed his back then sat by him (no longer hanging over his playpen).  But when I did that, HE was the one hanging over his playpen..so when he did, I would PD only bc he wouldn't lay down..is it okay to PD during times like that or should I let him hang over even if it takes up the entire nap time?

He just woke from his first nap (40 min) and I did not try to PD. He ALWAYS cries when he wakes up from any of his naps..does that mean he is OT or is he just upset at waking up alone?

Thanks for your help

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Larren,

WRT to DS hanging over the crib, if he isn't upset then just let him get on with it, Tracey's rule was not to PD if LO is happy and not upset, eventually he will get bored and lie down..honestly  . If you lie him down when he does that he may see it as a way of getting your attention and interaction. At the stage where he is becoming used to the new way, you preferably want to interact with him as little as possible, but enough to get the result you want...tricky I know. Our DS used to try every trick in the book including blowing rasperries to try and make me laugh, doing headstands, throwing blankie and dummy and teddy etc etc etc  all of which I ignored. And as your DS is older he will more than likely have a lot more tricks up his sleeve  . A mistake I made for a while was to talk too much. That can be too stimulating, so stick to your key phrases and keep it to a minimum, just enough for him to know you're there for him.

How's it going now BTW 

Stick with it!  (X)

[Roseii]

Totally agree with pp xxx good luck x

[larren]

OMG, he's regressing!!! Is regression normal? Please say yes 

Thursday night, DS slept BEAUTIFULLY (w/an EW  )..after 46min of PD, he slept at 6:40pm, had a NW at 11:15pm but I settled him easily, and didn't wake up until almost 6am!!  Gosh, I hadn't slept like that since before he was born 

But, sheesh, yesterday was another story...while he went down for his naps well (and slept his average lengths pre-PD), BT was a MESS! I put him down about 30min earlier than usual bc I thought I'd give him time to play and fuss in bed like he usually does and still have time to fall asleep near his attempted BT (6:30pm), he fell asleep almost 2.5 HOURS(!!!) after I put him in bed. Then he had a NW at midnight and woke up at 5:30am     His first nap today was also a mess also.  Should I not have put him in bed 30min earlier??

After he wakes up from nap/BT, I always attempt PD for 30min-1hr (or until 7am)...is this too long/short?

Since reading your post, I'm trying to keep my talking down to a minimum and I don't pat/rub him anymore, and only PD when he's upset. Thanks for your tips, if you have anymore, please keep them coming! 

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hon,

How many days in are you  First of all WELL DONE! it is obviously taking a hold and you and DS are doing well  . YES regression is normal I had it with DS on day 5 but it only last that one day and usually it lasts 2 or 3 days at the most (I believe) so don't panic. I know it can be soul destroying  .  WRT how long you give him to settle, I always just gave 15 mins. You can't second guess how long it's going to take and if he falls asleep quickly (which will happen soon...really!) then you've given nap or BT with a shorter A time than intended IYSWIM  So when he starts to fall asleep quickly it could encourage him waking earlier in the morning..are you with me  Also if he sleeps from 7pm and wakes at 6am then that isn't an EW. So although you may want to encourage a 7am WU and  a 12 hour night is ideal, he may be an 11 hour a night baby (DS was for months) and PD at that time in the morning won't work because he's had a full nights sleep, so bear that in mind. IIWM and he woke at 6am I would just get him up and start the day cheerfully.  We'll see if Charlibob agrees with these points I've made

When he gets back on track it may be time to move more towards Gradual Withdrawl. If you think he's ready Move you chair away fom the cot further towards the door and turn you back. You can still keep saying your key phrases if necessary but you're giving him more space and letting him know 'Now you can do this on your own, but Mammy's still here' Are you still doing PD much now  Or is he tending to lie himself down more often than not 

Keep up the good work Hon, and focus on more of that wonderful sleep you'll both be getting soon  .

(X)

[Truly Blessed]

How's it going Hon 

(X)

[larren]

Whew, sleep training is one heck of a roller coaster ride!  DS is sleeping through the night well but now his naps are messed up 

Today marks one week since starting PD and since DS's regression the other day, he has slept through the night without needing my assistance the past two nights  !  I AM ECSTATIC!!

I do not need to PD much anymore but on average, DS takes about 20-30min to fall asleep (BT usually takes longer ) ).  DS is at a point where, if he is standing over his bed, when I stand up to do PD, he lays down himself...so he's getting the hang of things, thankfully.

Now, his naps on the other hand, have gotten messy.  The past three days, both of his naps have only been 25-45min.  I always attempt PD for a minimum of 20-30min (I used to try up to an hour).  I was wondering if I should make the 2-1 switch or if DS just needs more time adjusting to his new PD routine?  As happy as I am with his sleeping through the night, mommy would still like Y-time during the day 


Thank you so much for your support and advice!

[Truly Blessed]

Yippee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Fantastic well done you 2!

I remember when Sam started to lie himself down when I stood, it made me chuckle and feel very empowered. How far have you got towards GW Hon. Have you moved closer to the door yet  You know Mod Laura, told me to try walking out and leaving Sam on day 5 and I thought NO WAY! but I did it anyway, and guess what he cried/complained for 2 mins and went to sleep on his own  . I'm wondering if DS would do better now on his own without the stimulation of having you there. The fact is if he cries (his INYM cry) then you go straight back, otherwise if he just complains give it a few minutes waiting outside the door, read his cry and decide if you need to go back in  Is that something you can do at this point Hon  It takes a leap of faith but it worked for us. I have even whispered Sam's key phrases through a chink in the door to void going back in but letting him know I'm there for him and that was enough to allow him to settle    .

WRT his naps, could you post his EASY please to take a look at.

Also is his room well blacked out  The light during the day could be making a difference. If it isn't just try temporarily draping something dark over the window so you know if it's compounding the problem. If you get results work on blacking right out permanently.

Bye for now Hon.x.

[larren]

Here's our routine:
6:00/6:30am - wake up (usually attempt PD till 7am but did not today)
7:00am - breakfast
9:45/10:00am - nap (30-40min)
11:30/12:00pm - lunch
2:00/2:30pm - nap (25-45min)
4:30pm - dinner
5:15pm - clean up for bed, BT stories, etc
6:00pm - into bed
6:40pm - asleep

The amount of time it takes for him to fall asleep for both naps/BT varies..sometimes it amazes me how easily he gets to sleep and other times it amazes me how long it takes! So, it goes both ways    Naps have gotten crazier...I haven't attempted PD these last few days bc after DS wakes up from his naps, he poops and won't lay back down! I know those 30min naps are not long enough for him bc by the time BT rolls around, he is a big cranky-pants. But IDK if he just needs more time to adjust or if he needs to cut a nap. Big sigh to the latter 

I've slowly moved towards the door but only about 1/3 of the way there     In terms of WO, do I do this immediately after placing him in his playpen or should I wait for a few moments in my GW spot?

I have another question...right now, I have been the only one sleep training DS.  DH works nights but on his days off, he would like to help putting DS to sleep..I was wondering if DS will grow accustomed to me putting him to sleep and give DH a hard time or if it will be just as easy?

I keep telling DH how proud I am of our little DS for STTN! My big boy 

[Truly Blessed]

Morning Hon  

Okay...WRT to your last questions:

Yes you can try walking out as soon as you put him down, it may work it may not but you'll never know unless you try. Is he crying a lot or quite happily just messing around now   As long as you get straight back in there IF he is genuinely upset, I'm sure by now you recognise he IMYM cry. Well done on getting further towards the door  .

WRT  DH it is fine for him to now try the new routine with DS. It's a good thing now that he knows how things are done now that DS is well on the way to self settling. My DH did it around a week in and it was fine. At the end of the day he needs to know the way things are done when you're not there and it's good for DS to know everybody does things this way now. It's possible he'll try it on because it's Daddy. I would recommend you trying to leave him to self settle before DH joins in just incase it's going to be fine already then it would just be a case of DH putting him down and leaving.

WRT his EASY. He is at an age where he may well be heading towards one nap and so it's tricky. Can you post his nap times and lengths before you started the new routine so I can see what was going on before.


(X)

[larren]

When putting DS down for sleep, he usually fights it a little bit, hanging over his bed, and I need to do PD...not much playing anymore..I found the playing to be so frustrating! LOL

DH attempted to put DS down for his first nap today but didn't do the wind down routine right so DS wouldn't settle despite his tiredness 

Here are DS's naps the last few days:
10/01
9:25-9:55 (30min nap, 41min to fall asleep, 40min PD after he woke)
1:16-1:49 (33min nap, 21min to fall asleep)

10/02
9:50-10:21 (31min nap, 14min to fall asleep)
2:07-2:50 (43min nap, 23min to fall asleep)

10/03
10:04-10:42 (37min nap, 38min to fall asleep, no PD-pooped)
2:27-2:51 (24min nap, 32min to fall asleep, 25min PD after he woke)

10/04
9:41-10:18 (36min nap)
1:55-2:32 (36min nap, 18min to fall asleep, no PD-pooped)

10/05
9:42-10:27 (28min nap, asleep after I finished singing, 15min PD after he woke & pooped)

Sorry if this was too detailed...his naps are just so all over the place!
Side note: DS woke a little before 5am this morning..I hope it's not something he gets used to. 

Thank you 

[Truly Blessed]

Hiya Hon,

It's helpfull to see what's been happening the last few days  but what I wanted to know was how long and at what time he was napping before you started the sleep training so I can see if the time and length of his nap was consistent. This will give us a better idea of where to go WRT A times etc. Sorry I bet it took all your willpower to type all of that out. Also I would need to know what time he had woken and what time BT was WRT the last few days naps too, so I can see what his A times and night sleep have been. Do you instinctively feel that he is OT or UT at nap times  Is he giving off all his sleepy signals before PD 

(X)

[larren]

Oops, okay..here it is:

Our typical day pre-PD
6:30am - wake up
7:30am - breakfast
9:30am/10:00am - first nap usually 1 hr-1.5 hrs (slept on my chest)
12:00pm - lunch
2:30pm/3:00pm - second nap usually 30 min-45 min (put him down on our bed once asleep)
4:30pm/5:00pm - dinner
5:30pm - get ready for bed (wash up, change into PJs, read, breastfeed)
6:00pm - into the carrier to be walked to sleep
6:40pm - around the time he usually falls asleep

Here are DS's sleep the last few days:
10/01
5:35 - awake (had a NW at midnight, 20min to get back to sleep)
9:25-9:55 (30min nap, 41min to fall asleep, 40min PD after he woke)
1:16-1:49 (33min nap, 21min to fall asleep)
6:26 - sleep (20min to fall asleep)

10/02
6:26 - awake
9:50-10:21 (31min nap, 14min to fall asleep)
2:07-2:50 (43min nap, 23min to fall asleep)
6:50 - sleep

10/03
6:26 - awake
10:04-10:42 (37min nap, 38min to fall asleep, no PD-pooped)
2:27-2:51 (24min nap, 32min to fall asleep, 25min PD after he woke)
6:44 - sleep (40min to fall asleep)

10/04
6:02 - awake
9:41-10:18 (36min nap)
1:55-2:32 (36min nap, 18min to fall asleep, no PD-pooped)
6:41 - sleep (36min to fall asleep)

10/05
4:52 - awake 
9:42-10:27 (28min nap, asleep after I finished singing, 15min PD after he woke & pooped)

IDK why he likes to poop when he wakes up from his naps!  LOL


To be honest, I am not completely sure what  his sleepy signals are...in terms of yawning, rubbing his eyes, etc..DS doesn't really do that but when I look at the time, I THINK he should be due for a nap and I'm afraid he will become OT so I take him to bed even if he is not showing sleepy signs..is that wrong?