Author Topic: Cold turkey to 1 nap - OT disaster - & now resisting 2 naps aarrrgggghhhh!!!  (Read 32437 times)

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Offline clairebear79

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We went cold turkey to 1 nap almost 2 weeks ago with my 13month old DS.  We tried the following routine: wake: 6am (ish), set nap: 11am, BT: 6.30pm ish. 

Prior to this we were doing a 30min nap at 10am(ish) & attempting to do a 1.5hr nap at 1.30pm(ish), but he kept resisting the PM nap & would often not fall asleep until 2-2.30pm, meaning not enough A time to BT.  His WU started to creep earlier & so we tried to make the jump to 1 nap.

The first couple of days he did 2hr+ naps, then OT struck.   We stuck with it in the hopes that his bodyclock would kick in to wanting the set nap at 11am & then his naps would lengthen.  Sadly, things got even more wonky - he was waking repeatedly through the nap & then at night, then his WU got earlier & his nap cut back to 30/45mins.  Despite APing a C/N at tea time & doing EBT we couldn't keep the OT at bay & after 12 days we got a 4.55am WU. :o :o :o

I came to the conclusion he may not be ready for 1 nap as not only was he very OT, he was very miserable, crying all the time, constantly looks tired & has huge bags, so in the last few days, we reverted back to 2 naps to help him get over his OT.  HOWEVER after just 2 days of catch-up, today we got nap resistance YET AGAIN. ::)  The last few days went like this:

Wed:
Wake:  4.55am           (after just 10h 15 night sleep - due to being exhausted from 1 nap days)               
Nap:    9.00 - 9.45      (held him out til 9am earliest as he is a former chronic EWer.  Woke him after 45mins to ensure we get PM nap)
Nap:    1.25 - 3.10      (he was actually a bit OT for this nap - woke a couple of times.  Woke himself after 1h 45)         
BT:      6.45pm           (he was crying for bed at 6.15pm despite the nice long nap today, as still OT)

Thu:
Wake:  5.10am           (10h 25 night sleep.  Several WU's in early part of evening due to OT.)
Nap:    9.10 - 9.55      (Pushed nap out 10mins so as not to encourage EW. Woke him after 45mins.)
Nap:    1.20 - 3.00      (PD a little earlier than yesterday.  He settled well & slept a solid nap of 1h 40)
BT:      6.45pm           (slightly early to keep a lid on OT arising from long day)

Fri (today):
Wake:   6.10am          (11h 25 sleep.  BUT woke repeatedly every 20mins from 3.50am onwards, crying for a minute then back to sleep)
Nap:    10.10 - 10.40   (at MIL's house.  Cut nap to 30mins so as to encourage earlier PM nap so he has enough A time to BT)
Nap:     2.50 - 3.50     (fought being PD for his PM nap for almost 1.5hrs with full on screaming like I've never heard.  We aimed for 3hrs A after a 30min nap & he was having none of it.                                      After 40mins in bed we got him back up & tried again a while later.  Took 3 attempts before he would settle.  We woke him after just 1hr to preserve BT)
BT:       7.00pm

I really don't know where to go from here  :'( :'( & am in desperate need of some help/guidance.

He is a 'Touchy/Spirited' combo & I believe they thrive on routine, however I am really struggling with this.  He has NEVER really been in what you would call a good or consistent routine.  Not for lack of trying, but his days are always so different that it is almost impossible to stick with a set A time OR a set nap time.  B/c one day he will sleep 11hrs overnight & manage a nice long 1st A time & do a great nap, then the next day he wakes up an hour earlier, then can't handle the same A time b/c he is not so well rested.  Same goes for set naps - works great for a couple of days then an earlier or later WU throws us for an absolute loop b/c he is either majorly OT by nap time, or seriously UT.  I am just really struggling to find the right A times for him.  To add to this, he rarely shows tired signs, yet he looks tired ALL THE TIME which makes me worry he is in fact chronically OT.

We have tried long AM/short PM with limited success b/c DS will just refuse his PM nap & I am unable to AP a CN in the car every day b/c of work commitments.  Short AM/long PM nap has so far worked most successfully for us, however with the PM nap resistance today, we find ourselves back in the same position, wondering how to get him to take 2 naps or whether he does need to be on 1 nap after all.  AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH???

  • Is it really feasible that he wasn't tired enough to go down 3 or even 4hrs after a 30min nap (when he has already done 4hrs A time before it)???
  • could he just be chronically OT & this is why he is fighting the PM nap, rather than b/c he is UT ???  Maybe I am putting him down for his AM nap too late & so he is already OT when I try to put him down for his PM nap ???

My gut feeling is that rather than jumping straight to 1 nap (which ends in disaster every time I try :P) I either need to:
a) find the 'right' A time after a 30min nap so he goes down readily (any ideas anyone  ???), OR
b) cut the AM nap back even further to say 15mins, to bring the PM nap even earlier & stop him from resisting it (what A time to do after a 15min nap though ???)

If anyone has any suggestions/advice I'd very much appreciate your thoughts.xx

p.s.Sorry for the long post & all the questions, I'm a bit lost right now  :-[
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 19:48:34 pm by clairebear79 »

Offline clairebear79

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Anyone?

Offline Shiv52

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Despite APing a C/N at tea time & doing EBT we couldn't keep the OT at bay & after 12 days we got a 4.55am WU.

Based on this and this:

I came to the conclusion he may not be ready for 1 nap as not only was he very OT, he was very miserable, crying all the time, constantly looks tired & has huge bags, so in the last few days, we reverted back to 2 naps to help him get over his OT.  HOWEVER after just 2 days of catch-up, today we got nap resistance YET AGAIN.


I would have stuck to 1 nap for a while longer APing a CN every 3/4 days.  during those 12 days was it just one nap the whole time?   It took us a good 3-4 weeks to settle totally into one nap.  What did you do to extend the naps when he started to waken early? 


I think given that you are getting PM nap resistance after 2 days of 2 naps it may not work long time.  What A time does he do in the morning before his nap normally? 





Offline Roseii

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Hi Claire perhaps you need to persevere with one nap, late morning, and early bedtime for a week and see where it gets you? Aim for 5/5.5 hours a time either side?
X
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Offline Shiv52

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Posted with Charli and agree with her too xx





Offline clairebear79

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Hi ladies thanks for the replies.

Shiv/Charli - yes - during the 12 days it was just 1 nap the whole time.  The only time I resorted to a CN was a couple of days where he slept 30-45mins for his nap & he just zonked out when we went out in the car in the afternoon

WRT extending naps, it is impossible in our house.  If he wakes mid-nap I leave him to self-settle, which he usually does.  If he doesn't, then that is nap over.  If I go in the room there is absolutely NO WAY he will resettle.  He is also really difficult to AP naps with - the only way is in the car & that isn't even guaranteed.  To add to this, he now spends 1 day at nursery & 2 days at MIL's & so there is no option to AP naps on those days to keep ontop of his OT.

He is so, so much happier since going back onto 2 naps too, but I agree its not looking good that we are getting PM nap resistance already.  Do you think its not even worth trying the very short AM C/N ???  Before trying 1 nap we were doing a set nap at 10am, so his A time would vary depending on WU, but it was generally around 6am so roughly 4hrs A.

With the 1 nap routine we tried 11am nap to start with (5hrs A) but obviously as his WU got earlier this made his A time increase to 5.5hrs+ & I think this is what put the final nail in the coffin.  The last 2 days of 1 nap he slept a 2hr & 2hr 40 nap, but then was crying with tiredness by 5pm & then of course we got the EW.  I actually think 5hrs A time is too much for him & 4.75hrs is more what he can handle.

If we end up back on 1 nap:
Would we be better sticking with a set A time in the AM rather than a set nap time in order to keep OT at bay?  Is this going to work with a LO who can be very inconsistent with his WU times as won't it mean that his naps & BT will vary greatly from day to day?

If the same EW situation were to arise again (I suspect it might  :-\), are you saying we would need to hold with the nap at 11am regardless of how OT he is or whether he is crying with tiredness, and even though that would be 6hrs A time after a short night ???  

My biggest worry is how on earth to keep OT at bay if I can't AP him to extend his naps ???  He is such a tricky baby & the prospect of very EBT doesn't really appeal as he has been a chronic EWer for many months & putting him to bed early generally just leads to him waking early.  Not an exciting thought when DST change is fast approaching.  :-\  How early would I actually need to do BT ???  Is 6.30pm too late ???
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 20:54:14 pm by clairebear79 »

Offline Shiv52

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WRT extending naps, it is impossible in our house.  If he wakes mid-nap I leave him to self-settle,
I wouldn't.  I would go straight in when you hear him stir and resettle him to sleep.  I had to do that with M.  if she woke too much she wasn't going back to sleep ever.  Get him if he stirs and give it a good 20-30 minutes before giving up.  Its the only way I found to get them to extend and manage the one nap well.  You can gently say your sleepy phrase and say 'its still sleep time, back to sleep' if you need to.  There will be OT and OT wakings in the nap so you have to be prepared to resettle.  Would that work? And I mean as soon as he stirs.   

Do you think its not even worth trying the very short AM C/N   Before trying 1 nap we were doing a set nap at 10am, so his A time would vary depending on WU, but it was generally around 6am so roughly 4hrs A.
I wouldn't as i would feel really really mean waking my LO after 15 minutes and the aftermath would not be pretty.

If the same EW situation were to arise again (I suspect it might  ), are you saying we would need to hold with the nap at 11am regardless of how OT he is or whether he is crying with tiredness, and even though that would be 6hrs A time after a short night
I always stuck to set nap give or take 15 minutes and set bedtime.  So yes I would maybe do the nap 15 minutes early otherwise you end up in a cycle of then needing an early bedtime then you get an earlier wake up so earlier nap and on it goes. 

Although thinking of what you have written if he only managing 4.75 A time I really dont' think one nap is feasible TBH.  Given that he generally does an 11.5 hour night you will need a 3 hour nap every day at the least to make up the 24 hour day and i think that could unrealistic longterm. 

Maybe you do need to go back to 2 naps and try the very short nap and make your goal getting him able to manage 5.15-5.5 A time consistently before you make the shift to one nap? 

Sorry Claire, not much help but really until LOs can manage at least 5/5.5 hours A time without issue one nap will be really tough. 






Offline Roseii

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Just seen he's still only 13mo, had it in my head he was older! Ok so is a morning car-nap possible on days you/grandma have him? Say:

A 6am
S 9-9.20 in car
S 12.45/1...not sure for how long?

And although set times can work, I'm thinking that could be really tricky for you/him given he's not in the same situ everyday? So maybe he needs alternte 2/1 naps, with you working hard to extend that one nap on days you have him?

Sorry if I'm not making a huge amount of sense, tired :P

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Offline Truly Blessed

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Hi Claire, Hi Ladies,

Having followed Oliver and Claire, by way of a friendship formed through BW'ing site, I pretty much know all there is to know about Oliver and what he will and won't do.

I have suggested to Claire that maybe she should go for the 1 nap again, with a 2 nap catch up day when Oliver isn't coping, maybe every 5 days or so  ??? He does well for a few days then the problems arise but on 2 naps there is no consistency so I thought this may be a temporary solution untill he is completely ready.

Do you think this may work  ??? We also considered alternating 2 naps an 1 nap days but that is trickier as Oliver is with other carers for 3 days.

A cat nap later in the day is also something we've tried, but Oliver doesn't always take it, so it's unreliable as a solution.

(X)



Offline Shiv52

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That had been my original suggestion. CN every 3/4 days to keep on top of OT and then a later bedtime on those days.  But I worry about his A times. He needs to beable to manage at least 5 hours really well.

Were you doing a set bedtime on one nap Claire?





Offline Roseii

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Yep, I think that makes sense, like I said with C attempting the 1 nap on days he's home with her xx
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Offline clairebear79

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Vicki - hiya - I PM'd you.  ;)

Shiv - our normal BT is 7pm but when doing 1 nap days we did EBT at 6.30pm.  We have suffered many months of EW & Oliver doesn't often tack on lost sleep to his night, so we are reluctant to bring BT much earlier as his WU will generally just get earlier.  However, I realise that pushing him at both ends of the day will just compound the OT problem so maybe its something we just have to suffer short-term.

WRT his A times - I find any more than 4.75hrs in the AM leads to a broken nap with repeated WU's.  But if he did a decent 2hr+ nap, he would definitely manage longer than 4.75hrs in the PM, maybe more like 5.25ish.  So if we could get a 2-2.5hr nap each day then a 1 nap day would be just about feasible right?

Just thinking out loud as to whether it may be possible to just go for it.  I feel that he may still need the tiny CN in the AM, but then that will never give us the opportunity to extend his A times to 5hrs+ will it?  So maybe I would be better starting off with 4.75hrs A time, & AP'ing a CN as & when needed, or do EBT as you all suggest. 

I am still a little worried about the current EW situation though.  He was up at 5.30am again today so we have had to do 2 naps.  I am hoping I can get the timing right for that PM nap & get a decent nap to push his WU later tomorrow - I truly think today's EW was due to OT from only 1.5hrs sleep yesterday.  If his EW's continue though, how on earth do we get through a 1 nap day ??? i.e.:

wake: 5.30am
A = 4.75hrs
S = 10.15 - ??? maybe 12.30 (wishful thinking!)
A = 5.5hrs - this is just guesswork!
S = 6pm - is this the sort of BT we'd need to do?  And wouldn't that just encourage him to wake even earlier the next day ???

WRT dropping in a 2 nap day as & when needed - he is at nursery 1 day/week & 2 naps is just impossible there.  If they PD for an AM nap (even only 30mins) he will outright refuse to sleep.  They tried to AP him (rocking/cuddling/pushchair) & he wouldn't go down for the rest of the day.  So we have already agreed with them that he will just have 1 nap at nursery, & last week he did sleep for 2hrs there so we have some progress with that.  So the 2 nap days may need to be done when he is with me, as no-one else can spot his tired signs (and I struggle too  ::))

Offline Shiv52

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or do EBT as you all suggest.
I actually don't agree with that.  I think you do a set bedtime give or take 10/15 minutes.  With your LO not tacking on at night I see no point in an EBT.  I actually think it is counter productive to what you are trying to do. 

On a day like today when you got an EW I would have done normal A time to nap then APed a CN to get you to a proper normal bedtime. 

If you set the nap at 11am (so presuming a 6am wake up and 5 hours A time) would he just having OT wakings through the nap? 

Do you think there is learned tiredness in the am? I'd have thought if he can manage 5-5.5 hours A time after a 2 hour nap he should be able to easily manage that after a good nights sleep? 





Offline clairebear79

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With your LO not tacking on at night I see no point in an EBT.  I actually think it is counter productive to what you are trying to do.
This is why we tried to keep to 6.30pm earliest at our last attempt at 1 nap.  B/c EBT can just mean EW for us.  He will only tack on at night when he is really really exhausted.  Say if he only slept 1hr or less during the day.

WRT setting the nap at 11am, this is what we did already & yes he had OT wakings throughout the nap.

I don't think learned tiredness is an issue in the AM, simply b/c we have never had a consistent routine going.  :-[ His naps always vary greatly from day to day, so he never gets tired at a specific time of day.  I think I have confused his bodyclock & it never knows what is coming.  :-[ WRT him managing 5.5hrs after a good night's sleep - yes if we did a 1 nap day as a one-off he would manage it ok, but once he is doing it every day after just a few days he is severely OT & his naps & nights both shorten.  After 11.5hrs+ he would manage a 5.5hr A, but when he sleeps 11hrs or less then its a real struggle for him.  :-\

Today has gone:
Wake: 5.30
Nap:    9.30-10  (held him out til 9.30 (4hr A) but TBH he'd have gone down earlier.  we woke him from nap)
Nap:    1.30-3    (PD at 1.05 as he was shaking his head.  He went quiet at 1.15 & 5mins later woke coughing.  Took another 10mins to resettle. We woke him from the nap.  This was a good solid nap with no mid nap WU's.)
BT:      7.00       (that's the plan anyway.  This still makes for a 13.5hr day, so I am worried we will just get another 10.5hr night - it seems the longer his day, the shorter his night IYSWIM)

When he EW's, I keep holding him out for 4hrs before his AM nap b/c I am scared to let it fall too early in the day, as I know in the past this has been a big problem for us & just reinforced his EW.  But then I am keeping him up a LONG time before a short nap - so could this in fact just be causing him to be OT even before his PM nap, hence why we are getting nap resistance ???  He woke up happy from his nap, but just 2 hrs later was already shaking his head (a tired sign for him).  Surely he has to be getting OT from somewhere as he shouldn't really be tired 2hrs after a 1.5hr nap should he?  So do I in fact need to try getting him down earlier for his AM nap, rather than pushing him to 4hrs A?

Offline Roseii

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Hi there how you getting on? With my DD2 even now (at 15.5m) a 4 hour A time in the morning can be too long, especially if you've got NWs/EWs/short nights at play too. I do think you could try that nap earlier, say 3.5 hours after WU, still cap at 30 mins, then next nap approx 3-3.5 hours later, what do you think? It's tricky because I know what you mean about messing with his body clock but he's still so young you need to read cues too. ((hugs)) xx
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