Cold turkey to 1 nap - OT disaster - & now resisting 2 naps aarrrgggghhhh!!!

[~Sara~]

Hi Claire.  Perhaps what you're seeing is just his need for a catnap every couple of days to offset his 1 nap days.  There's nothing wrong with that.

Also, regarding night sleep, the general rule of thumb is that anything over 10h of night sleep is good.

So, by all means, try the catnap for a couple of days, and then after that, do the 1 nap days again.  Another idea I had is if he's consistently waking at 6am now, have you tried wake to sleep to see if you can get anymore zzzzs out of him?

He's not teething by any chance, is he?

[clairebear79]

Hi Sara

No teething atm.  Canines are already through so we shouldn't have any more for quite a while unless he gets his 2 year molars incredibly early!

WRT night sleep - I would totally agree 10hrs was OK if what I was seeing was a happy, well rested baby but he is not.  He has permanent huge black bags under his eyes & is constantly acting 'loopy' excitable, squealing, crawling round in circles, and he is having meltdowns at the drop of a hat.  He is most definitely 100% very overtired.  Also only a few weeks ago we were having 11-11.5hr nights on 2 naps.  I've no choice to do 1 nap again come Mon-Tues due to his daycare arrangements, but while he is at home with me he will be having an AM CN all being well.  I really think he is not quite there with his A times yet & needs that short CN to keep him going til lunch.

Today I actually let him have 30min AM nap 9-9.30 & then he slept a solid 2hr nap with no wakeups from 12.30-2.30pm.  I woke him from that to keep us on track for BT.  Lets hope that he wakes a touch later tomorrow & then I can shorten that nap down to 15mins & see if that helps us over the weekend.xx

[~Sara~]

Today I actually let him have 30min AM nap 9-9.30 & then he slept a solid 2hr nap with no wakeups from 12.30-2.30pm.  I woke him from that to keep us on track for BT.  Lets hope that he wakes a touch later tomorrow & then I can shorten that nap down to 15mins & see if that helps us over the weekend.xx

I agree to let him catch up on some sleep   Keep us posted!

[clairebear79]

Thanks Sara

This morning he stirred at 5.10am & was then dozing on & off until 5.45am when he was up for the day.  I know continually offering him a 30min AM nap from 9-9.30 is not a good idea b/c it will keep encouraging him to wake early, esp if he needs 3.5-4hrs A before he will go down for his nap.  Its a vicious cycle I have been in before, & it does not help.  Only a month ago we were getting 6-6.30am WU's every day & we were doing his AM nap no earlier than 10am, so I know we need to get back to that.

So, decided to aim for 9.30am nap for 15mins & then a 2hr PM nap from 12-2.  He started looking a bit tired just after 9am so we did quiet activities until I put him down.  He laid down straight away & grabbed his teddy, but then kicked up a right old stink, & took until 9.37am to settle.  So 3h 52A time.  I've never done 15min AM nap before so had no idea how long he'd last until his PM nap but thought 2.5hrs might be about right since he does 3hrs A after a 30min nap.  PD at 12.05pm aiming for asleep at 12.20pm.  Took him until 12.35pm to settle.  He chattered & shouted away & I can't for the life of me figure out if he was OT or UT - though I suspect OT from the stupidly long morning

I am aiming to get the CN to 9.45-10am & PM nap from 12.30-2.30 & want to stick rigidly with it for a week or 2 to see if it helps us.  This will be tricky especially at nursery, but I'm going to ask them to do it.

I do have a wee concern though.  If he refuses to settle for his AM nap until he's had 4hrs A time in the AM, then with a CN from 9.45-10am we are never going to get him to wake any later than 5.45are we?  And if we do keep with a 4hr 1st A time, then that means every day will be 13-13.5hrs long, which to me, seems REALLY long when he is only doing such a short CN in the AM. 

I am also having thoughts I hardly admit to - that maybe by keeping his A on a 1 nap day at 4.75hrs I am actually causing an UT/OT loop, whereby he doesn't sleep long enough at nap time, so is OT at bedtime & so wakes early the next day & it perpetuates.  And maybe I am throwing in the towel too soon - one disasterous day & that's it - its not working & we need to try something else.  Is it all my inconsistency that's really mucking things up for us?  Please be brutally honest?

I feel like I almost need to start again - as we don't really even have a routine to speak of - every day is totally different.  And he's just exhausted all the time & its not fun for any of us.  So if I was a newbie to BW & wanting to implement a routine b/c we've never had one, - what would your advice to me be? 

[Shiv52]

Hows it going Clare?

Is it all my inconsistency that's really mucking things up for us?  Please be brutally honest?

So if I was a newbie to BW & wanting to implement a routine b/c we've never had one, - what would your advice to me be?

If you were a new poster and you posted your last two weeks I would say it is impossible to know what is working and what is not as no two days are the same.  I would say the best thing to do at this stage is to pick a plan and stick to it for at least a week-10 days, more if you are seeing progress.   I would say that tired cues at this age are not wholly reliable and not to be changing your plan based on an eye rub or yawn, only on a series of tired cues across a decent time span.  (R is 12 months and always seems to give tired signs at 9.30/9.45 (about 2 hours after waking).  If I get her to sleep she will do a short nap but I don't and i hold her out to her proper A time and then get a decent nap.  But if I was relying solely on tired cues at this stage I would be all over the place).

I would also tell you OT is cumulative and LOs need 1-2 weeks to enable their bodies to get used to a new routine and to push through the OT.  By reducing A times again you are lengthening the whole process.  I think its also important to know that OT is cumulative and that an EW is not necessarily caused only by the previous day.  It can be caused by the past few days which is why I wouldn't change things based on what happened on the day that led to an EW.  I would also tell you that a 13-13.5 hour day at this stage of the 2-1 is totally normal and totally fine and if you get more than 10-10.5 hours night sleep then proceed with normal A times and don't reduce. 

So i do think you need to decide what your plan is and stick to it and do not change it for at least a week, 10 days at best. 

Either do your short am-long pm

or

1 nap with CN every 3-4 days

or

alternate 1 nap and 2 nap days

I would make sure whatever your plan is that you are sticking to at least 4.75 A time first thing if you get anything more than a 10 hour night and I would think of doing 5 hour A time at one side of the nap to give the one nap a better chance of working.  I liked Sara's plan for the switch where you base whether you have 1-2 naps based on wake up and i would stick to a fairly set bedtime of 7pm. 

When we switched to one nap (with CN every few days) it took 3-4 weeks for the nap to lengthen out.  The days were long but she got used to it fairly quickly.

HTH xx

[~Sara~]

Hi Claire!  I agree with everything that Shiv said, hon.  I know it's tough and sometimes hard to see the forest for the trees; but I think picking a plan is the best option at this point.

[clairebear79]

Ladies, I wholeheartedly agree.

I got my BWSAYP book out again yesterday & re-read a couple of chapters.  And the realisation has just smacked me in the face.

It seems in my efforts to be a responsive parent & follow DS's tired cues, I have lost sight of the crucial fact that he NEEDS routine & consistency.  I always harp on about how hard it is to have consistency when he wakes & naps at such varied times, but this is only b/c I ALLOW him to.  He needs me to take the lead & guide him.

I always followed the EAS pattern just as Tracey suggested but could never figure why DS's naps were'nt consistent or how to get us there.  I obviously totally missed the bit in her book (p177) where she says that the naps need to be at more or less the same time every day (give or take 15mins).  What on earth have I been doing for the last 9 months   I think I got so entrenched in solving his EW that I forgot all the basic principles of BW   

So, like Shiv says, we need a firm plan & to STICK to it.  I like the suggestions you gave Shiv & I also have a possible plan of my own.  I'd really appreciate your opinions ladies:

My biggest concern right now is this: He is still very OT.  I think if I try pushing an already OT baby 5hrs to nap time every single day it is not going to be pretty.

So, say I start with 4hrs A (so 10am nap assuming 6am WU) & allow a 1.5hr nap, & then similar A followed by PM CN & do that for a good 3-5 days.  This should help eliminate any OT that he's currently harbouring, & encourage his wakeup to shift later.  Then, I extend the AM A time by 15mins to 4h 15 & let him sleep as long as he wants & do a PM CN if necessary.  Then in another 5 days extend it again to 4.5hrs & so on until we are at 5hrs & then hold it there consistently.  This is the method Tracey describes in BWSAYP to transition to 1 nap & I just wondered if it would be a gentler way for him to get there, without getting so OT in the process as he would if I push him straight to 5hrs when he is used to doing around 4.    That way we are working towards our goal & keeping a consistent A time to his nap, whilst hopefully eliminating the existing OT & encouraging his WU to shift later.  Obviously there is a risk of PM C/N refusal, but once his A time is upwards of 4.5hrs it shouldn't really matter as we can just do EBT.   

What do you think?  Is that totally pointless & a long winded way of getting there?

[Roseii]

Hun I don't think it can get any more longwinded now I think it's a very good plan. My only concern is him potentially refusing a PM cn, but if he does refuse consistently perhaps you could fast forward to the second stage of the plan?
I think the very fact that you have a plan and want to stick to it is perfect
xxx

[Shiv52]

{{{{hugs Claire}}}}}

I think that sounds great.  Its a good idea to eliminate the OT before moving on but not taking too loing about it because once O is caught up he starts refusing the nap and then you end up in the same cycle. So I agree with Charli and think if after 3 days he starts faffing about at PM CN then move to 4.15 A time the next day.  I would stick with that plan the whole way through.  If you find at 4.15 he is taking a great nap and PM CN is not happening get to 4.30 A time after 3 days.  KWIM?   I think what you are suggesting sounds great and i do think the consistency will pay off. 

It seems in my efforts to be a responsive parent & follow DS's tired cues, I have lost sight of the crucial fact that he NEEDS routine & consistency

No one can fault you for that.  I think though for me BWing is so so much more than EASY and sleep.  So by the time my DD1 was 1 I used the BWing methods much much more for all the other areas in her life.  But you are right.  They do need a consistent routine at this stage.  It is much less about cues once they get to this age and more about consistency.  But you can move your cue watching to all the other areas in O's life xx

[clairebear79]

Thanks so much for bearing with me ladies.  

I already ran my plan by Vicki (SammysMammy) & she also thought it sounded good, bar the PM C/N refusal risk (thanks hun ).

Shiv that is a sensible suggestion WRT the CN refusal i.e. to see this as my sign to shift the nap out later.  Right, tomorrow DS is at his grandparents for the day & trying to work in a PM C/N may well be difficult, so Wednesday is day 1 of 'THE PLAN'.  I will report back in a week.
 

[Shiv52]

Hope it goes well xx

[clairebear79]

Siigh - we're not off to a very good start ladies - he's poorly again.

He woke repeatedly last night, up for the day 5.45am.  He's picked up hand, foot & mouth disease (from nursery I suspect) & has blisters on his hands, feet & in his mouth & more are appearing on his legs.  He's very fussy & whittery & was yawning at 8.30am. 

I still went with 'the plan' & he fought the first nap even though I was sure he was tired.  Asleep at 9.55am (4hrs 10).  WU crying at 30min, 50min & nap was over at 1hr 20.  He's been fussy all day & is constantly rubbing at his eyes/nose/mouth & I can't tell if he's tired or just sore.  So I've risked it & tried to put him down for a nap for 3pm & he's kicking up a stink.  He's been in there 20mins now so I suspect I will have to get him back up & try for a CN in the car.  I've a sneaking suspicion we will be having yet another 1 (very short) nap day, so he will have been awake since 11.15am right til bedtime.  How early do I do BT if he won't nap?  Even if I do 6pm that's still 7hrs?

What the heck am I going to do   He is so, so overtired he is sleeping terribly all the time, night & day.

[Roseii]

Oh no poor baby OK maybe you need to delay the plan by a few days and revert to AM cn and PM nap, maybe one nap days after 2 2 nap days? Try and avoid that OT whilst he is so poorly...
x

[clairebear79]

Thanks Charli.  I finally got a 10min CN in the car & did 6.30pm BT.  He woke at 4.50am coughing & coughed continually until 6.45am when I got him up.  He was quiet in between coughs so I'd like to hope he got a bit more sleep.  Like you say I think I have to play it by ear til he's better & then try again. 

[Roseii]

good luck and ~~~~~~~~~~~~healthy vibes~~~~~~~~~~~~~ to little O xxx