Cold turkey to 1 nap - OT disaster - & now resisting 2 naps aarrrgggghhhh!!!

[clairebear79]

Hi ladies

We did another 2 nap day yesterday - it went:
Wake: 6.30
Nap: 9.43 - 10.25  (PD at 9.20 for 9.30 nap but took him a while to settle.  No crying or fighting so suspect a tad UT.  We woke him at 45mins)
Nap:  1.40 - 3.10  (PD at 1.20 as he was constantly head shaking.  We had originally planned to do 2pm nap as per the day before but he seemed too tired.  Took 20mins to settle again, but  no crying, just chatter.  We woke him after 1.5hrs)
BT:  7.00pm

We had an 11.5hr night last night - up at 6.30am.    O's still got big bags under his eyes but they are definitely looking better than they did a few days ago.

I think I have made a bit of a boo boo this morning though.   PD for 9.30am nap as per last 2 days.  He didn't go to sleep yesterday until 9.42am so I thought he might need a bit more A today, but he started head shaking at 9.15am so I got him upstairs at 9.20.  He was UT again, took him 30mins to settle to sleep.  So don't know what this head shaking is all about.

Its so tricky b/c as he catches up he is obviously going to need more A, but its knowing how much. I don't want to push him too much b/c I honestly think he has been in a permanent state of OT for quite a while.  The difference in him when I lay him down for naps is quite unbelievable.  Last week, when I PD he would excitedly tear from one end of the cot to the other, and now he is just laying straight down quietly. 

So, I was thinking maybe we should do nap at 9.45 for a couple of days & cut 5ish mins off the nap length, then shift it to 10am, at which point we need to cap it at 30mins so PM nap can remain at 1.30-3pm.  Do you think that sounds ok?

[Roseii]

Claire I think it's def a good idea to keep to 2 naps whilsts he's recovering and still
OT, like the idea of gradually shaving too. Great night hey! Xx

[clairebear79]

I hate to say it but I think we're heading back into another UT/OT loop.

Yesterday:    
Wake:  6.30am
Nap:   9.43 - 10.25   (A = 3h 13)    S = 42mins
Nap:   1.40 - 3.10    (A = 3h 15)    S = 1.5hrs
BT:    7.00

Today so far:
Wake: 6.30am
Nap:   9.47 - 10.25     (A = 3h 17)   S = 37mins  (PD 9.20 due to tired cues, took 27mins to settle so he must be UT.  I woke him at same time as yesterday to preserve PM nap as I thought he was a little less tired)
Nap:    :-\RESISTANCE  & still awake at 2.15pm

I PD 1.15pm as he started fussing & getting excitable - thought he'd already got his second wind so got him straight down.  He's still chattering/playing in cot 1hr later, so A = 3.75hrs & counting.  He's now starting to fuss/whine as I think he's getting fed up of being in there.  

How do we rescue/recover the rest of the day??? Do we cut the nap shorter than 1.5hrs to keep BT on track?  Or do we need to push BT out to 4hrs from WU from his nap, if he ever actually goes to sleep

Then what for tomorrow - would you suggest we need to get the AM nap capped at 30mins max?  And maybe from 10-10.30 (assuming we get a 6.30am WU?)  In which case when do we do the PM nap  Is 1.30 a reasonable target or are we looking at more like 2pm?  & I guess BT would also need to be later right - more like 7.30pm to give him enough A after a 1.5hr nap?

ETA: he finally fell asleep at 2.28pm after a 4hr A time (after a 37min nap).  

ETA: we let him sleep 1hr, up at 3.30pm & did 7pm BT.  He was rather tired.  Siigh.

[clairebear79]

Ladies we were up today at 5.45am.  I can't believe how easily O is affected by OT.  One messy day & we're back to repeated NW & EW.  Siigh. 

Had been planning to do 30min nap 10-10.30 & 1.5hr PM nap (assuming we got a 6.30WU again) but am now scared that its too much of a jump in A times from 3h 15 to 4h 15 overnight.  Does 9.30-10AM sound better & hopefully we can nudge it back towards 10AM over the next couple of days with some later WU's?  And then cut the nap back to 15mins?

My gut feeling now is that none of this is doing what its supposed to b/c DS is just about ready for 1 nap.  We had this same scenario 2 weeks ago.  Trouble is, DH doesn't agree.  He thinks its just a case of us not having found the right A times for his PM nap & if we crack it he will be able to carry on with 2 naps.  I'm really not convinced.  However, I don't see how on earth we can make the jump when he is waking early already & is so easily upset by becoming OT.  Siigh.

[Shiv52]

Claire...I think you need to go back to this for all the reasons we discussed before.

So, say I start with 4hrs A (so 10am nap assuming 6am WU) & allow a 1.5hr nap, & then similar A followed by PM CN & do that for a good 3-5 days.  This should help eliminate any OT that he's currently harbouring, & encourage his wakeup to shift later.  Then, I extend the AM A time by 15mins to 4h 15 & let him sleep as long as he wants & do a PM CN if necessary.  Then in another 5 days extend it again to 4.5hrs & so on until we are at 5hrs & then hold it there consistently.  This is the method Tracey describes in BWSAYP to transition to 1 nap & I just wondered if it would be a gentler way for him to get there,

But i am confused...are you now saying you are going back to short am/long pm?

A few more thoughts....I would be worried about continuing as you are going as he spent a really LONG time yesterday settling for naps.  A half hour for his first nap and 1hr15 for his second.  That is the biggest indictor that the A times you are using are not working.  And as we said before tired signs can only take you so far at this age.  So he spent nearly 2 hours of his day trying to settle for naps.  Please don't take this the wrong way but that is alot of time to be in a cot on your own not sleeping when he should be up and having fun.   I think you are maybe concentrating too much on trying to sort these naps and putting too much stock on tired signs so yesterday when he was getting fussy and excitable at the pm nap I'd have changed activity, went for a run round the garden etc.  His tired signs are clearly not reliable at this point hun and i think for the next few weeks you need to clock watch and get him on a consistent routine.

The other issue I see is you keep cutting his PM nap to preserve bedtime.  I don't think this is fair on O.  You are not allowing him a restorative nap in the day time.  He needs at least 1.5 hours.  At least.  So I think if you are continuing down this 2 nap route (and even in the move to one nap) you need to accept that you have to allow him at least 1.5 hours and then a proper amount of A time after and if that means bedtime is 8pm then you have to be OK with that.  I think cutting his PM nap to preserve bedtime is not doing you any favours in the longterm and actually going to contribute to the UT/OT loop more than a longer day. 

but am now scared that its too much of a jump in A times from 3h 15 to 4h 15 overnight

No I think move to 4 hours like you were going to do originally.  Remember what i posted last week....the effects of the routine are cumulative.  It is not just yesterday that effected last night.  KWIM?  He was handing 4 hours a few days ago.  If he's caught up in his OT then go back to 4 hours.  I think at 12 months anything less than 3.45/4 hours is not appropriate anyways so I do think you need to pick a base A time and go with it even in OT periods.  You have to let him get used to the A times and push through the OT.

SOrry i am rushing out the door for nursery run so excuse this being short but wanted to get back to you before your am nap.   I think pick a plan and give it at least a week without changing anything. 

[clairebear79]

Hi Shiv - thanks so much for your reply.

We were doing short AM/long PM to let him catch up on his OT yes.  Yesterday I wasn't sure he had fully caught up (even though the signs were there  as he took 20mins to settle for all naps the day before), so I carried on.  Clearly the A times we are using are too short.

I also agree that capping the PM nap doesn't help.  All it did was make him OT.  I tried to argue a case for making BT later, but DH doesn't agree.  He thinks stretching the day is worse than not giving him enough A before bed whereas I disagree with that, as insufficient A will just make him EW, and cutting the nap means he hasn't had enough sleep.  

DH & I talked & we both agree that my plan to do 4hrs A long nap & PM catnap won't work b/c he just won't take the PM c/n. And 4hrs A in the AM is just not enough to get him through the day, esp when we are starting with an EW.  For example, if I go back to 4hrs A today, that is only 9.45am. Even with a nice 2hr nap, he will be awake before midday & so we are looking at 6hrs+ A time to BT if he refuses the CN, which will just make him more OT.  So how do we get round this

I know some OT is inevitable in the transition, but you have seen the effect it has on O.  Just a tiny bit of it & we get EW virtually straight away.  Then it makes it so very difficult for us to carry on.

I think maybe we need to do a longer first A than 4hrs, more like 4.5-4.75hrs & maybe we have a fighting chance of a decent nap & getting through the day.  My biggest problem ATM is that DH really doesn't agree.  He thinks 1 nap just makes him OT, and yes I agree it does, if we keep allowing stupidly long days like 13+hrs.  So I feel like I am stuck trying to muddle through with 2 naps.  

Siigh.  I'm off today since he's not allowed to nursery, so I actually have a full week where I could implement a decent routine.  Do I just go for it?

ETA:  I am an idiot & I have chickened out again.  He started rubbing his eyes at 9.15am despite changing activities & then at 9.35 got really fussy & yawned so I PD (we hardly ever get yawns so def a good tired sign).  He fussed/cried for a good 10mins, not at all like yesterday when he was chatty & playing in bed & most definitely UT. I think he is already OT & I'm not surprised after the mess we got in with his naps yesterday.   Asleep 9.50am, same as yesterday.  4hrs 5mins A.  It looks like I have no choice but to go with the short AM/long PM again today though.  I can't risk this being the only nap of the day can I   So I will do 30mins AM nap, 1.5hr PM nap & we will take your advice & stretch BT if needed, Shiv. 

[Roseii]

((hugs)) hun I know you're finding this all really hard 

Trouble is, DH doesn't agree.  He thinks its just a case of us not having found the right A times for his PM nap & if we crack it he will be able to carry on with 2 naps. 

Thing is hun, we can't "prove" to your DH that O needs one nap, it IS going to be a messy transition and maybe EWs are something you just have to accept will happen for a good couple of months, and something you need to combat every few days with a cn of some sort. Having said that, you are still juggling his routine a lot, after saying you've realised he needs more set times yk? I *know* that set times are really hard to do when you have EWs, but you'll never know if you don't stick to it for a WHILE.

And the fact that you don't really want to compromise his 7pm bedtime works well with this, b/c if anything you can bring bt forward to 6.30 (if you've had a 5.30am WU)

Having said *that* 

Claire...I think you need to go back to this for all the reasons we discussed before.

So, say I start with 4hrs A (so 10am nap assuming 6am WU) & allow a 1.5hr nap, & then similar A followed by PM CN & do that for a good 3-5 days.  This should help eliminate any OT that he's currently harbouring, & encourage his wakeup to shift later.  Then, I extend the AM A time by 15mins to 4h 15 & let him sleep as long as he wants & do a PM CN if necessary.  Then in another 5 days extend it again to 4.5hrs & so on until we are at 5hrs & then hold it there consistently.  This is the method Tracey describes in BWSAYP to transition to 1 nap & I just wondered if it would be a gentler way for him to get there,

 

I agree this is probably the best course of action for a few days whilst he is OT and poorly. Sorry if this doesn't make a huge amount of sense, I've had 2 NW girls and not enough caffeine!!!!!!

x

[Shiv52]

I tried to argue a case for making BT later, but DH doesn't agree.  He thinks stretching the day is worse than not giving him enough A before bed whereas I disagree with that, as insufficient A will just make him EW, and cutting the nap means he hasn't had enough sleep.

I agree with you.  I think making him get through the day on two short naps is very very unfair and then to expect him to make it through the night OT is unreasonable.  A longer day with proper A times and one proper restorative nap and a later bedtime is much fairer on O and in the long term helps the shift to one nap.     A 13 hour day is normal in this 2-1 switch, even 13.5 before the jump to one nap  (which is why then people make the jump as the day is getting so long) so if you guys are going to stick to 2 naps then you need to accept a 13/13.5 hour day. 

[clairebear79]

Thanks ladies.  I know we are juggling a bit but we were just trying to get him through being poorly.  And we have stuck with the same nap times, its just him who hasn't LOL!  Obviously I know its b/c he's not tired enough & things need to change.

Shiv - I just went up at the 30min mark to wake him up from his AM nap & he is so fast asleep he didn't even stir when I put the light on & went in the room.  So I came back out.  Since he did 4hrs A I have done what you suggested & gone back to 'THE PLAN' of long AM nap, since we never really had chance to get started with it last week due to him being poorly.  

I am so scared of this b/c its so early in the day for a 1 nap day.  I am scared to death he won't take a PM nap. So, do I just let him sleep as long as he wants, or do I need to wake him at 1.5hrs in order to make sure we get that PM C/N?

On the one hand I think I should wake him, however if I do wake him & he still refuses to C/N then he's only had 1.5hrs sleep all day & that's really not enough.   If he takes a 2hr+ nap, what sort of EBT should we be doing?  6pm  Is that really an EBT when he was up at 5.45am

I am going to try & keep to this now he's getting over his illness.

[Shiv52]

So he went down at 9.45am ish?  I would let him sleep as long as he wants but no longer than 12. 

But say he does 2 hours you will be looking at at least 4.30 A time so aim for a CN around 4.30pm (better to be OT then UT) for 15 minutes or so then 2.45 or so to bed at 7.30pm.  Do not be tempted to go for a CN before 4.30 or it will get refused.  You aim is to make sure he is getting enough A time through the day.  I'd forget how long the day is for a week. 

[Shiv52]

Oh and run him ragged before the CN.  Make sure he is physically tired.  Jumping on the bed and obstacle courses work well here x

[clairebear79]

Hiya

He went down at 9.50am & woke at 11.10am - 1hr 20 sleep.  4hrs A really isn't long enough for him is it?

What would you suggest as a decent A time - around 4hrs?  So nap 3.15pm ish   I think he's going to need a bit longer than 15mins to make it to BT though - maybe allow 30mins?

[Shiv52]

I would think 4 hours isn't enough for him.

I would try 4 hours to CN but make sure he is done in.  Lots of physical play as I think that still may be short. 

After 30 minutes CN you will still need a decent time to bed.   Both my LOs could manage practically all their usual A time on a 30 minute CN.  So presuming he'll need time to settle and is awake from the CN at 4pm give him a really decent A time to bed.  I would probably do 7.15/7.30pm. 

I think he has shown he can do great A times on short naps or one naps so I think its best assuming he can handle more than you think.  So maybe decide what you would go for and then add a half hour

[Roseii]

Highly recommend lots of outside time! Totally poops my two xx

[clairebear79]

He's not walking yet so outside play is a tad tricky atm - but I will engage him in many games of crawling chase!!!!!!!!  Thanks ladies.  I will keep my fingers crossed that he will take another nap this afternoon.xx