23 month old OT and AP due to starting day care and I"m expecting in 4 days...

[lokloktang]

my DD started day care 2 days a week 2 weeks ago... she's not able to nap at daycare and as a result she's accumulated OT. She fights every nap and bedtime (big big big fight)... I tried to give her earlier BT but still she fights.... and despite her being tired, she wouldn't fall into deep sleep.... she would sleep still (perhaps asleep or she just wasn't moving, I'm not sure as the room is dark) and every 5 min also she would request to be patted.

I was struggling whether to avoid AP or to solve her OT problem. I tried to avoid AP but it appears to build up her OT problem.

Today, I tried to clear her OT by giving her 2 naps.. first nap 4 hours after wake up time (6am) which lasted 45 min.. then another nap after 4 hours. Obviously to make her sleep after only 4 hr A time, I had to rock her.... this can potentially be the start of AP... 1 hr after nap 2, we went out for dinner and she was soo tired on the way there.. I thought I succeeded (i.e. the more she sleeps the more she wants to sleep). Then when we came back (3.5 hours after nap 2), i put her to sleep, instead of rocking, I just gently pat, on and off... but for 1 hour she would sleep for 5 min and then move her legs and wake up.. and then slept for another 5 min and then demanded that I pat her... then I couldn't stand it anymore and asked my  husband to continue.. and she started crying CRAZILY.... she's been crying crazily almost every nap and BT for several days...

I don't know how to put her back on track.. her temper has gone really bad due to lack of sleep.. and I'm expecting in SEVERAL days... I'm really stressed out by battling with her every nap and BT....

at day care, she is being put into her cot by 11:30, and she wasn't let out until 2:40.. during this 3 hour duration, she probably slept only 5-30min.... I feel it's so cruel and unhealthy to refrain her in a cot for 3 hours... I'm switching day care next week.

[<Catherine>]

I agree on the daycare issue - what does she do for the rest of the time whilst she's in the cot but not sleeping? Is she happy?

Why do you think she wont sleep at daycare? Was she fighting naps at home before she started daycare?

IMHO I'd worry less about the AP and combat that OT before it gets any worse - but then I do have a DS that suffers horrendously when OT 

What sort of routine is she on at the moment?

[lokloktang]

She stays In the cot and just toss and turn, she doesnt cry, maybe that's why she is not taken out of her cot.

Now she wakes up at about 5:30 and cries loudly. If I go in she will wake up. If I let her cry then after only a few min she falls back to sleep for another 30 min.  Lunch at around 11 and I try to put her to sleep at 11:30. She fights and cries and it takes 30-45 min and rocking patting to put her to sleep. Then she cries after 1 hr. I go in and she is super angry. I either pat her or just sit beside her. She either cries or rarely she falls back to sleep. At night we try to give her early BT at around 6 but she would not settle. She either cries amd cries or she would be still but move or talk every so often until after 45-60 min she then gets super angry and loses it amd cries.

[lokloktang]

I don't know if her sleep problem is OT or AP anymore.... She is now calm when we put her to bed but constantly asked to be patted.  If we stop, she is still for a while and them asked to be patted again.  If We leave the room After she falls asleep, she wakes up again.  Could she be not falling into deep sleep becos she is dependent on the patting? It's taking more than 1 hr to put her to sleep and often she would end up crying crazily before she loses steam and then allows us to pat her to sleep.

On the other hand there r signs of OT.  She always falls asleep in the car, and she is super cranky and clings to me. Butncould this be SA due to daycare and possibly due to a new baby arriving soon?

Routine:
Awake 5:30
Nap 10:15 - 11:00 (want to give her two naps to clear OT)
Lunch 11:30
Nap 3:10 - 4:10 (took 40 min to rock her to sleep)
Dinner 5:45
bT 8:50 (took more than 1 hr)

Day 2:
Wake 6am
Nap 11:40-1:10 (asleep in the car, transfer to bed)
dinner 5:30
BT 8:15 (just now... Hope she won't wake up in 5 min again) started at 6:50 took 1.5 hr...

[sianie]

Hi there....

What's the environment like at daycare for sleep times?

Both my LO's are in daycare & have been since they were 14/15mths old & it does take a little time for them to adjust to sleeping in a new environment (especially with other children) & it's unusual for LO's to sleep as well at day-care as they do at home but they should at least get some sleep.

I agree that it doesn't seem right that they keep LO's in their cots for such a long time so switching daycare does sound like a good idea.

What time have you done BT when she's not napped at daycare?

It sounds to me that she has gotten OT & as she's finding it hard to switch off & settle to sleep she's become reliant on the patting to help her to go down, which now may have become a bit of a prop. You are also right that there could well be an element of her being unsettled with the new baby due (my DD was very unsettled & her sleep went wonky before DS came along). It would be worth doing a longer than normal wind-down with her in her bedroom before sleep times so that she is able to calm & relax enough to go to sleep without too much intervention. I would gradually reduce the amount of time you are patting her over the period of a few days & then use either GW or WI/WO (see link below).

Has she got all her teeth through yet? The other issue at this age can be 2nd yr molars coming through which are known to cause sleep issues in some LO's.

I do think it would probably be worth going back to doing 1 nap a day, although I get why you've done some 2 nap days.....1 good long nap is much more restorative than 2 short naps so I would maybe aim for a 'set' nap time for a few days & stick to it to see if this helps things get back on track?

Does this help?

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

[lokloktang]

I gave her two naps only for one day and went back to one nap.  I try to give her early BT by starting at 6-630 but she never falls asleep before 8... Usually before 8:30.  Yesterday I rocked her until she was very drowsy and then laid her down and continued  to pat. Then she fell asleep within 15 min both nap and BT.  She slept at 7pm and woke up at 6am so that was great, she finally caught up on some sleep.

Today was another day care day, she did not nap at all. Could it be becos of my AP? I gave her dinner at 4:40 and BT at 5:45.I did the same (rock until drowsy then continue to pat and she fell asleep within 15 min)... I know she is depending more on me now but I really want her to catch up on some sleep.... She has never not napped at all since she was born.  Should I not have rocked/patted her tonight?  Also is 5:45 too early BT? She woke up at 6am this morning and did not nap at all....

At home her room is very dark, at day care it's definitely not as dark.... Also they put her to cot at 11:15. At home she usually naps at 12:30.... I'm thinking perhaps she's getting used to laying in the cot for 1 hr before napping at daycare and therefore we have such a hard time putting her to sleep at home (until recently I start AP)....

I don't know what's right and wrong and what should I do.....

[sianie]

Have you discussed with daycare how they are putting her down for her nap? Ideally you want them to follow her routine as much as possible when she's there so that her days are as consistent as possible.

My LO's sleep on mats on the floor of a sleep room at daycare (with other LO's) & although they don't sleep as well there (which is understandable), they do follow their routines as much as possible.

Are you still moving daycare? Is she at daycare all day or are you able to fit a cat-nap in in the PM if she's at home.

It could be that she's becoming a bit dependent on you as a prop to go to sleep, when LO's are OT they find it very hard to switch off to go to sleep so I would think that this is the reason she's not settling. I guess the problem is that you need to get her caught up on some sleep so it's whether in the short term AP'ing her to sleep will cause longer term problems (which it may or may not). I think the biggest issue is trying to get her somehow to sleep at daycare.

[lokloktang]

Finally resolved her OT problem (somewhat) by rocking and patting her tO sleep such that she is no longer fighting sleep.  She is still not napping at daycare (keeping my fingers crossed that this will change After she gets more comfortable with the new daycare) on daycare days I'm able to put her to sleep at 5;45pm so she gets at least 12 hrs sleep at night.  Now that she is no longer crazily fighting sleep, I want to stop rocking/patting but it's so difficult. We r reverting back to takIng one hr to put her to sleep.  Should i just do my rocking amd patting for 10 min if it works?.... I'm just so emotionally bothered that she is still not sleeping independently... And I've been sleep training for two years.... so discouraging...

[sianie]

You could try gradually reducing the amount of time that you are rocking/patting for over the period of a few days to see if this helps? The problem will be if she is still not sleeping at daycare she will still be very OT by BT, no matter how early you do it (& will struggle to switch off...hence how this issue started).

How often is she at daycare? Is she there all day?

[lokloktang]

She is at daycare thursdays and Fridays.  She always wake at 5:15am regsedless of BT.  The difference is if she had super early BT (5:45pm by rock/pat/sing) then she yells for a few min and then falls by to sleep for another 30 min and then yells again for a min and sleeps for another 20 min.  If i avoid AP, then it will take 60-90 min to put her to sleep and she would also yell at 5:15am except she would constantly yell and sleeps for only 5 min and yells again and repeats.  She is super sensitive to the quantity of sleep.  By sleep training her, I am effectively stealing her sleep time which immediately results in OT then both her and I suffer.

How do I continue to train her if doing so (even for just a day) will definitely result in OT? Am I overly obsessed with sleep training?  It's really stressing me out if she is not doing what she is "supposed" to in a perfect world.....

[sianie]

I think it's trying to get to the bottom of what's causing the EW's...the link below might be helpful:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=87109.0

ATM you are in a bit of a vicious circle whereby she has become dependent on being AP'd to sleep which could now be re-inforcing the EW's as she is now used to waking at that time & being helped back to sleep.

Does she have any teeth coming through? 2nd yr molars start coming through at around this age & can cause EW's (even before you see them cutting through the gum).

I think you have a couple of options; 1/ ride out the current AP'ing until she is more settled at daycare & your new baby has arrived (this may take some pressure off you & also it could be that there is some more sleep regression once your new LO is born so you can tackle it all at this point) or 2/ stop the AP cold turkey from now (can your DH help with EW's?) & use WI/WO or GW to settle her (I sent you the link in an earlier post). It really is up to you how you want to proceed & what works best for you & your situation?

Unfortunately, some OT is unavoidable whilst sleep training, it is hard work & for it to pay off you need to have a plan & stick to it consistently, I guess the way I see it is it's short term pain for long term gain iyswim? The first few nights will be hard going so you will need some support, especially as you are pg.

[lokloktang]

Thank you so much for ur advice. I am totally lost and need some guidance. Do u think httj still work with a two year old?  If so I want to stop AP (hence later BT) and httj at 5am-7am hopefully to delay her wake up time.... At daycare they nap at 12:30, if she wakes up at 5 then 12:30 is too late for her.

[sianie]

I'm not sure about HTTJ on an older LO as they don't jolt as much as a young baby....you could try it but really you could be replacing one prop for another.

Are daycare not able to put her down for a nap earlier?