Screaming at BT!I really need advice...

[Brock~Tahlia~Mummy]

Just an update... This seems to be working. I've stuck with it except last night (we had dinner out.) He seemed to be ok with 7.30 BT.
I'll keep up early BT/nap time.
I've discovered a new tired sign out of all this, B will kind of hype up? Talk faster and just do things faster. Everyone including me were thinking 'geeze I wish I had his energy' thinking he needed less sleep?!?! It was the opposite all along. Even though he didnt seem cranky or didn't tantrum? But what he did do was have a meltdown in bed.
I thought I'd mention this for anyone going through this.
In the past he would hype up but also rub his eyes, tantrum and stumble. These days is just hyper?! Goes to show how they change ALL the time! 

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hon,

I'm so sorry your DS is upset but I'm relieved to find this thread.

I am going through EXACTLY the same thing with Sam our almost 22 month angel DS. He has recently developed SA for me and he is screaming like he's terrified when put down in his cot. I have NEVER heard my little man so upset. We have never had any success with WI/WO. Maximum time I have tried for is 35 minutes but his screaming elevates and he bashes his head off the cot or the wall, so I am forced to stop. At the moment I am sitting with him with my hand on his back and he settles, then I wait 20 minutes untill he's in a deep sleep. If I leave earlier, the whole process just starts again. Last night I tried leaving to more screaming. When I went back in I said 'Okay baby Mammy stay' in his cutest little voice he said 'Yeeeah Mammy there' and pointed to the floor where is sit next to him. It's sooo upsetting  .

He is reaching a huge talking milestone too atm. He is repeating everything and stringing 3 words together.

We have also had NWings of 2.5 hours. The last 2 nights he slept through but this morning he woke at 5.35 so less than 10 hours. Now OT is setting in.

Other BW suspect this is down to A times but my 'Mother's instinct' says no. I feel it's down to his SA probably  However I have extended his A time to nap and to BT but now OT is setting in I don't think even this will be acheivable.

Anyway Hon, so sorry to 'Hijack' just need a friendly ear or 2. Lately it has been one thing after another and this morning I cried. I'm also tired and fed up and my house is upside down.

I hope you're still having improvements with Brock. It will give me hope.

((X))

[Brock~Tahlia~Mummy]

Oh hugs! Xxx it's so hard hearing them get so upset. I think you're doing the right thing.. We need to be there for them when they need us.
I found early BT a life saver!
I cut back his nap to 1 1/2 and later BT because B was EW a few months back... Well It worked eventually and evened out then bang!! The OT loop also set in and we were doing 91/2 nights and anywhere from 50mins to 2 hour nap, he was a mess. I decided thats it Early BTs!!! So again we caught up and went back to 10 1/2 - 11Hr  nights and 2hr naps.
Again EWs started so I cut his day nap to 1 1/2. The EWs stopped, thats when I noticed the hyper moods? Not long after that the screaming started.
It's a science!! You need a degree in figuring your LO out!
I think telling luvy not to cry and B not to cry in bed. Not in a negative way!! Very positive and nicely of course! We say things like 'we love duck, it's ok duck no crying Brock is here'. It sounds bazaar but maybe it might be worth a try?
We are teething here too, I saw one molar just cut through and the other is 1/4 through. This can't be helping at all either.
Today he was simply tired? He had an almost 11 hour night, a 2 hour nap the day before but he just looked tired? By 9.30 he was saying 'Brock tired' and rubbing his eyes..
We had swim class so it distracted him but I decided to put him to bed early and he fell asleep by 12. Again early BT tonight.
I think mummy instinct works xxxxx poor things they have soooo much going on. Poor us! We have to "manage" it! Xx

[Truly Blessed]

Hiya Honey,

Thanks so much for your empathy. Brock has followed the exact same pattern as Sam. We started our troubles after months of peace and an 11 hour night with a 2 hour nap when he started to sleep longer at night...later mornings for me...bliss...erm no  Then his nap went wonky and I had to resort to car naps because he wouldn't do cot naps. Molars are bulging so I thought that was the reason but still no sign and the dentist says it could be any time but not necessarily soon. So my thinking was too much sleep. Then one day he just went back to straight to sleep in his cot for his nap  ..just like that. Nights were 11.5 ish and his nap around 1.20. I think he needs his nap capping at 1.5 now to avoid UT. We had around 10 days of peace before SA set in and this started. I have stretched his morning A time to 5.5 hours but because it may take him longer to go to sleep I am going to keep BT at 7pm. Today we had a 5.35 EW (9.50 sleep so not and official EW  yeah right!) he is currently asleep in his pushchair after lots of fresh air but he went 5.50 A time  . My biggest worry is becoming a prop for him to sleep but from what I've heard that shouldn't happen FX'd. It feels like such a giant step back from our DS who went straight to sleep happily every time.

I ama big fan of child psychology and love what you've said to help Brock  . Sam is just 21 months but he has been able to make himself understood so well from the day he was born LOL. He understands everything we say so I guess we have nothing to lose. I will use his rabbit blankie as my tool  .

I'll check in with you later. I hope you don't mind me using your thread  I don't want to stop you getting advice yourself by 'Hijacking'

Thanks again.

BTW Sam has gone 'hyper' for a long time when OT. Is Brock an 'Angel'  Sam is and it's wonderful but handling OT so well also has it's problems. Its more difficult to know what they need when they're contended.

Vicki.x.

[Brock~Tahlia~Mummy]

It's fine Vicki! I've updated not only for me but for others too. Sometimes just by following a thread I've gotten my answer to something.

Yes I worried my GW method was becoming a prop but the plan was to help him sleep and feel safe again in his Cot. But I get that you'd be worried the car/push chair would become a prop... Hmmm. I think if you were to stay consistent with BT GW that would be ok? I think if you were to swap and change from Cot to car to push chair I would imagine S would become confussed? That's what I "get"?

Lol no my B is spirited! With touchy traits too. But... He's always been a great sleeper from 4mos old. This funny business started actually around S age.
B has always been an early teether and had his last bottom molars cut by 2years of age.
Now he's cutting the last top 2, that's it for us!
B has a lovely nature but can be verrrry intense at times. If he's happy he's giggling and jumping around, if he's cranky oh! Watch out it's like waiting for WWIII.
Like S he understands a lot and has done for a long time. You're doing the right thing by talking to S the way you do. It's amazing what they really do understand.
Ppl think B is smart, of course I like to think so!  lol but... I take the time to explain everything in basic language, telling what we are doing, about to do, what's happening, even if he's sad or upset or hurting from a fall or teeth I tell him what's happening etc etc etc... I think that's why I thought about telling luvy it's ok? Or "discussing" the no crying before bed? He "gets" so much during the day it made sense to explain to him what's going on in bed. We discuss the morning/day too just to get the mood positive? I then say mummy tired mummy needs to sleep too.(Not that I have time to sleep!)

HTH xxx 

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hon,

There's so many comparisons with our boys  Sam already has 16 teeth and his bottom molars are very near the surface, so I think/hope we'll be done and dusted soon too!  You and I think the same about communication. I have talked to Sam about everything since the day he was born LOL. I get fed up of hearing my own voice but I think that is why he understood so much so soon. Mind you it's frustrating for them when they understand so much more than they can say.

I tried the psychology with his teddy bear today. We put him in bed downstairs and tucked him in with a blanket then I went through the whole' Don't cry bear, Sam's here' Sam kissed him an hugged him and said 'Baby here' (he insists on calling himself Baby  ) then we repeated it at bedtime but it didn't help. It was worth a try but he's too young for that ploy....YET! LOL.

I wish this was down to OT for Sam because he tacks on and I've always been a big fan of EBT when needed, but if anything he was UT when this started due to really long nights.

Tonight was the same, tried leaving..screaming, stayed with him 20 mins..left...more screaming!! aaaaagh too soon (20 mins) so back in and another 20 mins siiigh  . When I went back in though he said 'Mama there' pointing to the floor next to the cot but I said 'No baby Mammy sit here on the chair' It's next to the door, only a little bit further away as his cot it next to the door anyway but at least it's a start as he accepted it.

(X)

[Brock~Tahlia~Mummy]

Shame it didn't work with Teddy...worth a try! Would it be worth encouraging though? Hmmm I wonder? I've heard of others using this method with different things.. Eg bath time, Cot play. The idea is to use the closest Teddy or we know them as luvy. You role play with the child's fav toy. I read in 2 different toddler/child reference books. Although I have ALL of BW books I'm finding I need more direction ad B grows. I'm in the middle of the BW toddler book.

Only the other day I said I'm tired of hearing my own "mummy" voice! Lol

Atleast he accepted GW on the chair? Poor s poor you! It's so hard to do the "right thing" when you're not even sure what the right thing is?!?!
I really feel it's just developmental sometimes! I'm sure their little brains get over worked from all the newly learnt skills?

B is doing ok... He went down quite easily I'm trying to get him back to a 12.30 nap time.
He threw duck over his Cot and cried for him so I picked him up, gave him to B and B threw duck again. I said in a stern voice last time! He said ok.... Hick....hick...
So! Now I'm guessing this is his new way of delaying nap time? Or me walking out of the room! Geesh!

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hon,

I am exhausted and my Baba has bags and shadows. Yesterday he had a good catch up nap of 2.35. BT PD 6.50, asleep 7.15 NW 9.45..sat with him back to sleep around 10.05. NW 10.45..DH went in..asleep again around 11 or possibly settled on his own as Mike left both of our bedroom doors open, don't know if it helped..maybe.

EW 5.15. Tried everything, no joy. Up at 6.15.  Now we're into several nights of 8.5 to 9.5 hrs maximum and he's severely OT. This is day 9 since this started. So we're facing a different problem than the one we started with. Tonight I'm going to go for EBT in the hope it will help him catch up. I'm not getting much sleep because of the ENW I can't go to bed early.

Problem also is since we've been staying with him he's not SS in the night as he wants us there too and there may be an element of 'where's Mammy gone' when he wakes. Tonight I think I need to move on with GW and stay outside the door, talking to him through a small gap. Last night his screaming wasn't as bad and he a ccepted DH staying with him, so I hope we're moving on with the SA slightly, however I need to get out now as I'm sure I'm becoming a prop. What do you think Hon. Any advice welcome.

Hope Brock is still doing well.

(X)

[Brock~Tahlia~Mummy]

Hugs xxx
Sorry to hear you guys are exhausted xxx

Sweet I would try and use GW as you suggested. I used both GW and WIWO (once he calmed). I think if you keep in mind that GW is steps YK? Thing is gauging whether your overstaying during GW? Although he has moved along pretty quickly from next to the cot, then to the chair and now the door. Plus he was accepting last night - like you said. The multiple wakings maybe teething? Plus his SA? YKWIM?
I found both WIWO and GW used together works well. i.e. with B he started screaming whilst going down for Nap/BT this is were WIWO didn’t work, however GW worked. If B NW WIWO was fine! I’d literally walk in tell him it’s ok time to sleep, re-tuck him in give him his lovey and walk out.
Maybe some teething meds before bed and some extra reassurance during A time? Does S play in his cot?
HTH hun, it’s tough getting through it xxx

[Truly Blessed]

Thanks Hon,

I can't be sure teething isn't at play, but if it is then the reaction is different to the past. I think we have a few things going on now. SA plus huge speech development and now of course good old OT. I'm doing nap in the cot today, we've been avoiding that due to the exhaustion is causes, but I want him to have a catch up nap if possible so I think sticking out whatever it takes is worth it today. I'm going to go outside the door and consistetly do the same. Of course he will throw lovies and dummy at me so I will have to go back in, but hopefully my trick of keeping it for one more minute every time will stop that again. He eventually stops throwing it incase he doesn't get it back  .

When he's down I think I will go to bed  zzzzzzzzzzzz as my temperament is less than great right now, so I need sleep for his sake.

(X)

[Truly Blessed]

An update:

Hey Hon,

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=220638.msg2366579#msg2366579

This is my thread if you want to follow so I can stop hijacking your thread  . We have had a good day with improvements so I'm hopfull we're coming out the other side    FX'd.

Thanks so much for your support. Hope DS is still doing well.x.

[Brock~Tahlia~Mummy]

Ok I'll look at your link xxx

We're awful here! I'm not sure how many NWs we had?! It's almost like he didn't sleep at all! I'm done today...Maybe 3 hours total? Lots of crying and screaming.
He was given pain meds before BT and during the night.
He screamed again at nap time he was so severely OT. It took 30 mins to fall asleep with him cuddling my hand. After 25 mins of on and off crying he fell asleep and I stayed with him until he fell asleep. He slept 3 1/2 hours. I let him go seeings hd had such a bad night. It honestly felt like the reflux days. I'm so tired.

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Sweetie,

Oh Hon, (((HUGS))) to you and DS, what an awful time you're having  . It's so physically and mentally exhausting when you're not getting rest yourself, I can totally empathise. What is it that's going on, do you know  Is it the molars or is he poorly 

Could you AP his nap  Do you drive  This is what I have done with Sam during similar tough times. Especially when it's teeth because it hurts less when they're sitting upright or just reclined. I have found that he sleeps so much better even in the pushchair. Just be careful driving if you're tired. I had a little bump recently after just 4 hours sleep when I was driving Sam for a nap and it was scary  . I also find a nap out of the cot less stressfull when things are bad because you don't have the screaming etc and I think LO's go over better without the pressure of 'Now it sleep time' KWIM' 

I really hope things improve soon. I can recommend you stagger his meds if he's in a good deal of pain. Doctors in the UK recommend this:

EG:

Ibuprofen

2 hours later paracetomol then continue staggering throughout the day at the recommended interval so:

6 hours later Ibuprofen

4 hours later

Paracetomol and so forth.

This means that you don't get the peaks and troughs that giving one med produces. It really works. Also it's worth checking with his doctor exactly what the right dose is for his weight because what it says on the bottle is often less if your LO is big for his age.

I have only done this when necessary, but it totally safe for both to be taken together and short term works miracles.

Here we are hopefully coming out the other side. Sam slept 11.5 hours through up at 6am. I'm so relieved.

Hope todays a better day Honey.

(X)

[Brock~Tahlia~Mummy]

Great news on the 11.5hours!!!!

B STTN last night it took 20 mins GW then out by 7.30, didn't here a peep all night and woke at 6. I think if his door was closed he mayhave slept a bit longer.
What a relief! We had a 1 3/4 hour nap also using GW for 10mins. He's now falling asleep with my hand either on him or B cuddling my hand. I just keep up with the meds as you suggested and keep up GW.
I saw the chemist yesterday and she also suggested a similar pain med pattern.

Xxx yawwwwn

[Truly Blessed]

That's super news Hon 

Last night Sam went straight to sleep slightly EBT of 6.30. But then 6 hours after meds (not coincidental I'm pretty sure) he woke. Then ensued a NW of 1.50. So another 9.5 hr night for Sam and 4.15 for me. Fed up again this morning  .

(X)