HELP! Need help/guidance with the 45 minute intruder and PU/PD

[MommySteezy]

Hello All! I am new to this forum and am hoping to get some advice from mommy's who have been-there-done-that or are just experiencing something similar to myself. I will try to keep the post as short, sweet, and to the point as I can, but as I have found from experience, that is hard for a new mommy to do!
Basically, my little one is almost 5 1/2 months old and we are having major issues with the 45 minute intruder during naps. She sleeps fabulously through the night and gives us at least 12 hours every night. She usually goes down fine or at least with minimal fussing (less than 10 minutes) for both naps and night time sleep. However, for the past month or so, more often than not she wakes up 45 minutes after her nap.Sometimes she will wake up crying immediately or wake up and stare at the camera for a little bit and then cry, or wake up and stare at the camera and then start playing. If I thought she just needed 45 minute naps then I would be fine with this, but I KNOW she needs longer. I want her to have at least 2, 1.5 hour naps a day and I would really prefer 2, 2 hour naps.
I am new to baby whisperer and read about the PU/PD method and decided to give it a try when she woke up from her nap today. It was AWFUL. Even worse than when we tried CIO and that is saying a lot. She cried harder, and made noises I have never even heard her make before. Sometimes when I picked her up she would cry even harder. It was terrible. I did PU/PD for 2 hours and I really started to feel like I was teasing her when I was picking her up and laying her back down. I am terrified that A) she is going to develop a fear/anxiety of her crib b/c of PU/PD B) that I will become a sleep prop since I am aiding and handling her so much.
I am at a loss. I just want to do what is right for my baby. I do not want to do CIO as I feel it just doesn't work for her but I almost feel like PU/PD is too much intervention. I am really hoping someone will have some advice for me tonight. At this point I am not sure if I want to do PU/PD again tomorrow if she wakes after 45 minutes. Any guidance would be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks so much!

[creations]

Hi MommySteezy and welcome to BW

I see you are new to baby whispering, have you introduced an EASY routine?
If so please could you post the times of your EAS for a 24hr period so we can take a look and see what's happening?  Could you also include any pertinent notes such as if she went to sleep calm or fussing, if she has a paci, lovie, and any health issues which may disturb sleep such as reflux or silent reflux.  How do you usually put her down for sleep (wind down routine, how do you sooth her, do you put her down awake)? And if you have introduced solids yet, if so was it recently?

I want you to know that PU/PD is NOT the same as CIO, for one thing your LO knows she has not been abandoned as you are with her throughout.
That said, if you don't know how to use PU/PD correctly and if it is causing a lot of distress for you and your LO then I would suggest you hold off for the time being until we can look at your day and work out a plan of action.  PU/PD is really a last resort rather than the first port of call.  It may not be the best method for your LO at this time, so let us take a look at the bigger picture and try to help you out.
BW methods are not quick fixes although you might have relatively quick results with the right plan of action.

Meanwhile, do what you can to keep her naps calm and keep her well rested, if she has only a short nap then maybe try the next nap earlier than usual to avoid OT.  At about that age my DS took 5 naps per day as we also had the 40 min monster come to visit.
You will get through this and so will your DD x

[MommySteezy]

Thank you so much for your reply! Yes, I have introduced the EASY routine. I started out reading Baby Wise (which calls the patter EWS) when I was pregnant but as my little one grew I just felt like it wasn't much of a help. They advocate CIO and as I stated previously I am just not okay with that. I got away from the EASY routine for a little bit b/c I was becoming desperate for changes and trying to fit a 3 hour feeding routine in with 2 naps....in hindsight I realize all I did was make matter worse. However, we have switched to a 4 hour routine and now our schedule looks something like this.

7:30 - awake and nurse
7:50 - 8:45 Activity -I try to do something pretty mellow at this time because she seems to get tired really easily at this time and I would like for her wake time to be at least 1 hr 30 min so she will take a decent nap. She will come downstairs with me and play in her highchair while I make coffee or we will stay on my bed and sing or watch Sesame Street for a little bit. During the last 20 minutes of wake time I try to take the activity level down so she can calm her body and mind.
8:45 - wind down in nursery
9:00 - Morning Nap
11:00 Solids
*This is where I run into some problems - if she slept only 45 min or less I feel like it throws the EASY routine off.  Below I have listed what I am trying to get to as far as the rest of my schedule goes. What do I do? Leave her in her room until an acceptable nap time (10:30 at the earliest)? Then shift the day? Enforce the schedule so we can extend wake times?
11:45 - 12:30 Activity - varies...bouncy seat, sometimes short field trips (library, grocery, etc.), practice sitting, tummy time, singing, mirror time, etc.
1:00 - Afternoon Nap - haven't had a good one for a LONG time.
3:00 Solids
3:45 - 5:00 Activity - varies...as listed above
5:00 - Cat Nap if needed -sometimes I lay her down for the nap, other times I take her for a walk and if she needs a cat nap she will fall asleep. Is it okay to do this nap out of the crib? I thought it might be since it is not as structured as the other 2 naps.
6:00 - Solids
6:30 - Wind down routine - bath every other night, lotion massage,
6:45 - Nurse and Bed
7:00 - Usually asleep around this time, give or take 10 minutes. After this she sleeps through the night. However, I am TERRIFIED that if our naps continue down this path that she will stop sleeping through the night (which is really the only thing holding me together at this point).

As far as our wind down routine this is pretty much what it looks like. I take her into her nursery and turn the lights off so she knows it is sleepy time. I have tried rocking her and/or reading a story to her during this time but she is not receptive to these. The book seems to get her more excited and she fights being rocked after a while (maybe because she knows what is coming?). I have recently tried doing a little massage after I change her diaper (sometimes she is still and calm for this, sometimes not). After that I pick her up, and hold her with her head on my shoulder and sing her our night night song. On the last verse I put her down, rub her belly and kiss her good night then leave the room. Sometimes she cries as soon as I lay her down in the crib but I am usually able to calm her down by helping her find her thumb (which she uses to self soothe) or rubbing her belly. If she does fuss it is never for more than 5-10 minutes before she falls asleep. Sometimes there is no fussing at all and she will play and/or talk to herself for a little bit before she goes to sleep.

There are no health issues that I know of. I even took her to the doctor because I was at my wits end with the nap thing and she said there is no reason to be concerned b/c she is growing and developing just fine. I trust and love my doctor but I KNOW she needs more than 2-3 45 min naps a day.

I understand that PU/PD and CIO are 2 totally different things. I was just using it as a reference point bc we have tried CIO and I didnt think it could get any worse. However, when I did PU/PD I heard her cry in a way she has never cried before. I felt like I was teasing her and that she was losing trust in me because as soon as she became calm I put her down. It was BAD.

I also read about W2S but I am scared to try that on the off chance that I wake her and she would have actually slept through the nap (she gave us about an hour and 15 minutes yesterday morning)

I am at a loss and slowly getting to the end of my rope. I am stressed and upset and consumed by all of this. I am not sure where to go from here. I just want her to have decent naps and get her as close to a schedule as I can. Any guidance would be so greatly appreciated.

Thank you

[creations]

Hugs to you, I remember how exhausting and upsetting it can be with those short naps and a screaming baby, you just want to do your best for xx

At BW we do not advocate CIO and only use methods which involve trust building and being there for your LO.

Reading the additional information is very helpful.  The first thing that comes to mind is that your A time is too short and your wind down possibly too long.
A time for 5.5 month would be around 2hr 15 to 2hr 30.  Have a look here so you know where you are headed in the coming months.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0
It sounds like she is getting a bit frustrated with the wind down, some like it very short (mine does). Nappy change, into bedroom, night night song (seems to go well for her) and into bed, key phrase (if you have one, like 'sleepy time' or 'sleep well, call if you need me' etc) and a little sooth.  It could take just 5 mins from starting the nappy change to being in bed asleep, this suits some.

I don't think PUPD is the right way to go at present.  It sounds like you have already established independent sleep, good nights and usually going off to sleep quite quickly on her own.  You already know what sooths too (tummy rub which is the equivalent of shush/pat which can be adapted to suit your LO - so if you read advice to use shush/pat then use your adapted version which is fine).  If at some point in the future you feel PUPD is needed (as a last resort) then please do head over to the PUPD board before starting so you can get some help in putting a plan in place before you proceed.

At the moment I think all you need do is extend the A time and maybe reduce the wind down (just cut out or cut short the things that are bothering her, there's plenty of other opportunities in the day for reading books or massage etc).  Extend the A time gently, her body clock might be telling her to go to sleep at 9am if this is your normal time, but she isn't fully tired hence the short naps.  Increase in increments of 5 or 10 mins, a bit longer if you think she is ok with it.  When you reach the full recommended A time you might find the naps improve 'on there own' or you could then consider one of the methods to try to extend the naps.  But we can look at that later.

At the end of her nap if you want to try extending with tummy rub and song then do, but it's also ok to just get her up and start the A time - if you're feeling worn out this might be preferable so that you're not sitting in a darkened room all day.  Sometimes it feels better, easier, to just get on with the day and put the short nap behind you.  Start counting the next A from when she wakes up though and make sure you have her down again by then end of the A time, maybe a little earlier if the nap was short to prevent OT (this means altering the day's EASY, leek the E in place at 4 hrs but move the S, writing it down helps to keep track, your EAS might look like EASAEAS).

I say it's fine to have the CN out of her crib, you aren't expected to lock yourself up in the house, it will do you both good to get out.

Let us know how it goes xx

[MommySteezy]

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I am literally crying as I read it because I finally feel like someone has some guidance for me instead of just "you should be happy your baby is sleeping through the night" or "you are over-thinking it" or "some babies just don't nap well'.

I really do want to extend her A time but I feel like I am playing scared. I think to myself - If I put her down too early she won't really need that long of a nap and will wake up before the next E time OR if I wait too long she will become overtired and then have an even harder time transitioning during those sleep cycles. There are times in the morning where I feel like she barely makes it an hour before getting sleepy again. 

I definitely think you may be right about the soothing. She has really never seemed to liked a long soothing routine. Lately though I have read so much about the importance of soothing and winding down though that I started to second guess myself with this. I think I will go back to this. Do you still think our last 20 min of A time need to be spent "winding down" so she is not too stimulated before I try to put her down?

I have to say I am relieved to hear that you don't think I should do PUPD. It was so awful yesterday and I really did feel like I was teasing her. Hopefully with your advice I won't need it. However, if I do I will definitely use the PUPD board for some guidance.

Are you saying that if she wakes after 45 minutes I can extend her nap by doing the soothing routine again (rubbing tummy and singing song)? Would I only do this if she is crying and stop when she stops crying or see it through until she goes back to sleep? I feel like if she wakes up crying she is really not ready to get up from her nap. If I just get her up, wouldn't that be going against helping her learn that she should be sleeping? It does certainly feel better to put it behind me, but then I kind of feel like I am chasing it all day long and I don't want to get into a case of Accidental Parenting when she wakes up after 45 min all the time because it is the pattern I have established.

Finally, just wondering, how does the cat nap not enforce waking up after 45 min? Should I try to be ahead of it and wake her up before she wakes up from transitioning in her sleep cycle so there reinforcement?

As you can tell I am terrified of creating bad habits and messing up. Like I said before, I just want to do what is right for my sweet girl.

Again, thank you SO much for your reply. I am overwhelmed that you would take the time to help me. It means so much!!

[creations]

More hugs coming to you.  I know you feel scared to put her down too late, too early, too much wind down, not enough...you are a loving mummy and you want to do your best for your LO, she knows that.  Sometimes you might get it wrong whilst trying to do the right thing, I can only suggest you whisper to her that mummy tried her best and will keep trying.  I still tell DS that when I get something wrong.

At this age my DS was giving me massive sleepy signs with very short A times, but the only thing that worked was to push him up the A.  The body clock can have an effect here, if they are used to napping at a certain time then you are fighting against that, also they can show sleepy signs if they are a bit bored or under stimulated (this is not a suggestion that you are not stimulating your LO), sometimes we keep things low key to try not to get them OS or OT but maybe she needs a change of scene or change of activity to help extend her A time.

If she wakes before the next E time there's no harm in having an extra A between.  Ideally she'd be having a full nap but in the absence of that then you can choose to just accept the short nap and get on with the day.  Do track the EAS though as your As and Es will get out of sync with a short nap.
I know you want to teach her to sleep, and there are BWers who will continue to try for the nap right up to the next E, it's your call whether to put a nap behind you or try to keep it going.  Sometimes we need to get out of that room or we go crazy!  Also, for me, I'd rather my LO got up played a bit, went for a walk or whatever, and made the most of the A time so we could have some happy fun time together, I think we both needed it.  We still got to the point of good naps, 2hr morning nap and 2 afternoon naps (we couldn't go for a long pm plus CN due to our circumstances).

I would try to get the A up first before attempting to extend a nap because trying to extend on a LO that isn't tired is going to be very hard work.
But, yes, you can try to extend by using your own soothing method of tummy rub, with or without the song, see what you think at the time.  You can also creep into her room before the 45 mins (say at 35 or 40 mins) and position yourself ready to start the second she stirs, or even put your hand on in readiness and start to sooth as she stirs.  Be aware that sometimes LOs get frustrated by interference but the only way you will know is by trying.  Personally I would sooth to extend for as long as needed if she looked like she was going to go back to sleep, right into sleep if necessary, if you can achieve this and get a good length nap you will avoid OT and might even get a bit of Y time too.  Don't worry about soothing for too long and it becoming a prop, she is already independently going to sleep, an extension is different, plus if it became a prop you can wean it without too much difficulty (by gradual reduction, I don't think you'd need to as you are already aware of the 'dangers' so will do what is needed and no more).  I still occasionally sooth DS all the way into sleep, if he is poorly for example or wakes with pain I sooth back to sleep to extend the nap and take him right into sleep if necessary.  It doesn't ruin them   This sort of soothing is what you will always return to with fevers, viruses, teething, whatever it is that disturbs them, and you will always know that you can reduce the extra cuddles/soothing once they are well again.

The CN doesn't reinforce a 45 min nap.  LO knows that bed time will be coming later and she only needs a certain amount of sleep in a 24 hr period.  Let her have the full cycle.  It's not that you should never cap a nap, but she'll feel better if she wakes at the end of a cycle.  It's not going to harm her routine.

The wind down.  You need to do what suits your LO.  If you know a long wind down doesn't suit her, then keep it short.  DS's is VERY short and he is fully active prior to starting it, in fact sometimes you wouldn't even know he was tired at his morning nap but the second I take him into his room his head lands on my shoulder and he is snuggling in for his song, 2 mins later he's in bed and 30 seconds later he's asleep.

I cannot promise that poor naps won't affect night sleep, but I can tell you that my DS continued to have great night sleep throughout our 40 min nap hell.  It was the 40min nap monster that brought me here too xxx

Keep us posted (and try to relax a bit, relaxing really does help) x

[MommySteezy]

This all makes so much sense. I have been telling my husband for the longest time "She's 5 months old...she should not be getting tired after only an hour!". I just feel like everything I have read up until this point has me so scared of her getting over tired that this never even crossed my mind. SO - today we tried extending her A time after she woke up. Here is how our day went (I have been keeping a sleep journal so I can try to wrap my head around all of this - I know it seems long winded but I want to give you as many details (especially on the A and S since that is what we are working on) as I can so you have the full picture). I have a video monitor so (good or bad) I see everything! Usually I am not as glued to it but while I am trying to track everything I try to keep it close by.

E - 7:25 - Got her from crib (she was awake at about 7:15), turned on light and said "wake time", changed and nursed

A - Mirror Time, Played in highchair while mommy made coffee and did dishes, watched a little sesame street - did some tummy time while watching and sang and danced along with the songs. She started acting a little fussy at 8:30. Normally I would have interpreted this as a sleepy sign, but instead I continued A time.

S - 9:02-10:20 -Took her into the nursery at 8:50. I turned the lights off and said "sleepy time". She fussed when I laid her down to change her diaper. when I picked her up I did sh-pat for a little bit and she laid her head on my shoulder. After that, I did the soothing routine I explained in previous posts. She was asleep by 9:02.
9:25 - sucking thumb, arm falling out of mouth and then frantically sucking again
9:31 thumb fell out of mouth - startled a little but stayed asleep
9:43 - My husband opened his office door (right across the hall) and she woke up and opened eyes - closed eyes and sucked thumb
9:45 - thumb out of mouth and asleep
10:20 - eyes open - playing with feet - happy - went in to room and praised for a good nap and turned on the light and said "wake time"
* I feel pretty good about this nap! I would still like to get to a 1.5-2 hour nap but I think maybe if we keep stretching the A time we will get there eventually.

E - 11:10 -  Solids Peas and Bananas

A - Played on activity mat for a little bit then went out to lunch with mommy and daddy. She was a little fussy during lunch (she fell and bonked her head while she was on the activity mat and had a good cry - we thought maybe she was still a little fussy from this?)

S - 12:40-1:16 - When we got home from lunch I went right into wind down as soon as we walked in the door. Especially since she was fussy at lunch. I did sh-pat and she put her head on my shoulder so I took her upstairs for the nap. When we walked into the dark room I said "sleepy time". Did soothing routine and laid her down for nap. She fussed when I left the room, I gave her some time to calm but she went into an ugly cry so I went back in to help soothe. Did sh-pat on chest until she calmed and started to self soothe with her thumb. I stayed for a little bit with my hand on her chest. I bent down and said "sweet dreams, I love you" (what I say every time before I  leave the room) then left the room while she was calm but still awake. She was asleep by 12:40. THEN....
12:51 - turned head and sucking thumb - settled and thumb fell out of mouth
12:54 - open eyes - rubbing eyes sucking thumb - fell asleep
1:16 startled awake and crying - went into room to soothe did song and rubbing belly - she calmed a little when song was over. I did a little sh-pat and she stayed calm. When I went to just pat she started crying again. I started singing and rubbing belly and she began making playful noise - I said sleepy time, but playful noise continued so I stepped away and sat down - she continued to play - talking to self and playing with feet
1:29 yawned - still talking to self - rolling to side
1:31 - crying and fussing while trying to roll over - stepped in to try soothing. I rolled her onto her side and did sh-pat (has been successful when trying to extend naps before) but she began crying harder.
1:35 - picked up to try wind down routine - she calmed down a little - laid down in crib and rubbed belly for a little bit. Again, she started playing so I stepped away and sat down where she could not see me. She went back and forth between fussing and talking/playing.
1:45 - She tried to roll on her belly but couldn't b/c of the sleep positioner and she started crying.
1:48 - Tried to soothe her in the crib but she continued to cry. I got her from crib and tried to soothe in my arms and she continued to cry and fuss. I opened the curtains a little bit and as soon as she saw the light she squealed and bounced in my arms. I took this as a sign that she was NOT going to be going back to sleep and stopped my efforts to extend her nap.
* Obviously - I am not as happy with this nap. Do you think she was just not that sleepy? If so, why did she wake up crying instead of happy? Is it possible that she is frustrated bc she knows she is supposed to be asleep but she is just not that tired?

Again - sorry for the lengthy post and the abundance of information. I just want to give you all the details I have so you get the whole picture. I am anxious to see what you think!

PS - She went down for a cat nap at 4:00 and is still asleep at 5:05. I am going to wake her up now. 

[creations]

woohooo!! you broke the 45min barrier

Brilliant result with the extended A, just about 1hr 20 nap, that's great.  Continue to extend until the A time fits her age.  Like said you do this gently in increments to allow her body clock to adjust.

Second nap, A time looks too long (2hr 20).  Don't know what time you got home from lunch and started wind down but with her fussing and not going to sleep straight away it ended up over-long when you take into account she might be accustomed to a shorter A, and she didn't get a full 2 hr nap.  This could result in her being OT (bare in mind she still didn't have a full restorative first nap even though you have a big improvement there).
Another thing to bring into the mix is amount of stimulation.  Going out for lunch is more stimulating than staying home with her own toys and regular known environment.  More stimulation can make her tired sooner than otherwise expected, it's an extra thing you need to take into account on a daily basis and judge where you're going, what you're doing and how many other people are involved (including guests to the house).  It might be that she wasn't relaxed enough to get through that transition at 40 mins when she jolted.
Not to worry though, you've only just started!

Some of the fussing during the extension trial seems to be frustration of being messed with (rub, pat, song) whilst trying to self sooth.  Only you can judge this at the time and do what you can to sooth or back off.  I know it is really really hard when you want to help her especially if she sounds upset too, DS had me in a spin sounding so sad during his mantra/fussing sometimes but he got dramatically worse (real crying even screaming) if I messed with him so I had to just tell him I was there if he wanted me.

Other things that will mess up naps are developmental leaps, new skills, so trying to roll (even in her sleep) can disrupt sleep.  Give plenty of opportunity in the A time - so if you go out and she's in the car seat/carrier/pram/high chair for a while give her some floor time too.

I know it's a lot to take in, and there are so many variables to work with, but look at your success today - brilliant brilliant!!
Keep going x

[MommySteezy]

Thanks! Hopefully the success will keep coming! I plan on extending her A time a little bit tomorrow as well. I am also going to keep an eye on her 2nd A time and try to keep it closer to 2 hours. I read in a couple of different books that the morning nap usually establishes itself before the afternoon nap so I am trying to be hopeful that when I get this morning nap established that the afternoon nap will follow suit. 

I have such a hard time knowing what to do when I try to extend the nap. I start out with a clear mind but it gets so clouded when I am in the moment and I end up 2nd guessing nearly every choice I make.

I am trying so very hard to relax. I am a perfectionist and so hard on myself with all of this, expecting to be perfect and do the right thing in every situation. It is driving my husband up the wall and leading me to a not-so-good place. Thank you for being a well-needed sounding board and advice giver.

[MommySteezy]

Ok....so....here is how today went 

This morning I woke up from a bad dream at about 5:45 am. When I checked the monitor I saw that my little girl had rolled over on to her tummy and was face down on the mattress. I panicked immediately and without thinking I RAN into her room and snatched her from the bed. Thankfully, she was okay and breathing just fine (although it did not seem like there was a way she could have been from the view on the monitor). However, I messed up BIG time. Her normal wake time is 7:00-7:30 and I obviously woke her up when I snatched her out of her bed. On a positive note, I did not scare her and she woke up happy BUT I needed to try to get her back to sleep. It took me about 30 minutes (10 of which I spent panicking and out of sorts) but I got her back asleep and managed to keep her that way for about 45 minutes. Granted, it was not good solid sleep - but it was sleep nonetheless.

I had already pretty much written the day off because of my scene this morning. But I still tried to follow my routine and the advice I had been given.

E - 7:00 - Nursed her when she woke up from her catnap after our fiasco

A - ~7:30 - 8:30 - At 8:30 she began to get pretty fussy and since she technically didn't have good restorative sleep until 7 like normal I decided to go ahead and take her upstairs for her morning nap

S - 9:00-10:14 - When I did the wind down routine she was somewhat resistant - I think maybe OT? - Still went through with soothing and she calmed a little. I  laid her down in crib and left room at  8:38 - she did not fuss or cry when I laid her down - sucked her thumb for a little bit and then went back and forth b/t fussing, and playing. I decided that since the morning was so off (and I was exhausted too) it might be a good idea for me to co-sleep her for her morning nap to get her back on track. I tried this, but even cosleeping she had a very hard time settling and getting calm and ending up head-butting my nose (which I had surgery on about a month ago...). Around 8:50 my husband stepped in and took her into the nursery to try soothing her and laying her down. He did sh-p and laid her on her side. She stayed on her side for a little bit and was sucking thumb to self soothe and then started playing and talking to self. We left her and eventually she fell asleep. My husband took the monitor and let me get a little rest. I woke up at 10:14 to sounds coming from the monitor. Initially she was talking to herself but then she started crying/fussing. I went in to room to try soothing - she calmed and then started to play a little - when I backed off she would begin crying again - tried soothing a couple more times but it did not work - got her up and out of the room around 10:25.

A - 10:30-11:00 -

E -11:00 - Solids - She got very fussy near the end of eating. She has been doing this the past couple of days. My husband and I think it might be teething? Could this be the case? Or, do you think it could be bc she thinks she is supposed to be eating when she wakes up and since she is not sleeping the full nap she doesn't eat right when she wakes up?
After she finished eating solids I nursed her A(~11:30) and she was rubbing at her eyes and she put her thumb in her mouth a couple of times. I removed her thumb and continued nursing.

A - 11:45 - 12:05 - I took her upstairs to do a little mirror time and massaged her on the bed for a little bit to try to keep her up for the full 2 hours.

S - 12:16-1:34 I took her into her room at 12:05, turned the lights off and said "sleepy time". She started playing while I was changing her. I kept repeating sleepy time in low voice. When she got very worked up I put my hand on her chest, repeated "sleepy time". I did soothing routine - laid her down on side, routine goodnight and left room - no fussing - sucking thumb, playing with positioner with hands a little bit and then fell asleep at 12:16. She started twitching at about 1:04 - eyes opening briefly just about once every minute. She woke up at 1:34 - sucking thumb. I left her in her room in case she was going to go back to sleep. She stayed awake, sucking thumb, not really playing but not fussing either. At 1:50 I went to get her from her room

A - 1:50 - 3:00 -

E - 3:00 - Solids - Fussing near the end of feeding again. She did fine in the beginning, but seems to get fussy near the end? I plan on asking our pediatrician about this at our 6 month check up.

A - 3:30 - 4:10 - played for a little bit with both of us on the sofa and floor while we watched the game. We waited for sleepy signs for her catnap

S - 4:15-5:05 - She didn't show us many sleepy signs but we decided to put her down for a catnap around 4:10 since she had been up for a while. She went down pretty easily after soothing and woke up almost exactly 45 mins later

I will skip the next E and A - nothing particularly out of the ordinary for us and since my main concerns were her naps and they are after both of the naps I wont go into much detail. HOWEVER, when we put her down for the night tonight she had a much harder time going down than usual. She usually goes down independently within 5-10 minutes of us laying her down after soothing. Sometimes she fusses, sometimes she plays, sometimes she just goes to sleep right away - but it rarely takes her longer than 5-10 minutes. Tonight (and last night) it took her much longer. Tonight, it took almost an hour 
When I laid her down she did not fuss at all. She began playing (which she sometimes does - but usually goes to sleep after a bit). She played so much that she moved out of her positioner and I had to go in to fix it. When I went back into the room I moved the positioner. She got excited and jerked her body. I said "sleepy time" kissed her and left the room. She fussed for a minute and then went right back to playing. I realized I moved her too far down in positioner, my husband went in to move her back up and she played and then cried when he left then went back to playing. She continued to play for quite a while (like I said - almost an HOUR). She finally fell asleep at 7:50. Do you think the cat nap interfered with her ability to go down easily?

The part above is not-so-good but I can handle it bc I think we may have had a part in it since we came in and out and usually once she is down for the night we don't go back in her room. What happened next has my head spinning and is making my whole body tense up. She woke up at 9:25 crying hard. She has not woken up after going down for the night in at least 2 months...maybe more. I went into her room and tried soothing with sh-p on chest but she continued to cry even harder.  I picked her up to calm her and did soothing routine. She eventually calmed and I laid her down in her crib and she did not fuss. I left room around 9:35 and she seemed to fall asleep at 9:38 - not 100% bc she is not facing the monitor. It is now 10:37 and she has been whimpering/crying on and off for the last 30 minutes at least. It is like she is having a bad dream or something. Does that happen with babies this little? It is breaking my heart.    I am so tired from the stress of today but nervous to go to sleep after the night's events.

Wow - that was long. Sorry....it has just been such an emotional roller coaster or a day. A couple highs with two naps at about 1hr 15 min each which is an improvement  . But taking so long to fall asleep and then waking after she went down...ugh 

[MommySteezy]

So - I just re-read this and realized just how long and painful it might be to read. Maybe that is why it has not gotten a reply...? I do apologize for the overly-abundant details and for it being so drawn out. I am just feeling desperate and wanted to be as thorough as possible and give as many details as possible because I thought it might help when giving advice. I wont write another essay but today has been BAD.  If any one still is willing - I sure could use some guidance.

[creations]

Hey MommySteezy
Don't worry about the long post, sometimes it's a good way to get things clear in your own mind and can help you recognise patterns and formulate plans.
We're in different time zones, your long post came a close to 4am my time and I was snuggled up getting some zzzz.

Rolling in the cot is scary.  I managed to avoid that one.  I think you can expect to be going through to roll her back quite a few more times yet, until you feel she is ok tummy sleeping.  SIDS guidance is to keep them on their back until 6 months, you're LO isn't far off that, you might feel she is strong enough to roll herself back should she want to, or you might want to keep turning her for some time yet.  Your call.  What a fright though!

I understand your thinking that her night sleep was disturbed so get her down early for a nap but I'm leaning towards thinking UT at that first nap rather than OT.  If you're working with an A time of 2hrs (still heading up towards more like 2.5hr) then 1hr 30 is really quite short.  I think that's why you had resistance, playing and fussing around for so long.  The A time ended up being 2hr anyway, and 1hr 15 S.  My thought is that had her A been a little longer, or more active (playing book reading, rather than in the cot) she might have gone down quickly, willingly, and possibly even slept longer.  What is exhausting for you is that it seems like you're spending all day getting her to sleep, I know, been there, it makes it feel like it was a rubbish nap even though it was a greatly improved nap.

Both naps were very good.  1hr 15 is such a big improvement and we only started a few days back
I think the CN might have had an impact on BT, or it could be teething pain, hard to know really.  You gave her a really long A before the CN though, which I think you might have missed.  Nap 2 ended at 1.34pm  CN began 4.15pm, A= 2hr 45.  This is too long for her age.  In your commentary you say she woke at 1.34 and you left her a while to see if she would go back to sleep, she didn't, therefore A started at 1.34, not 1.50 when you got her up.  The cN should really have been a little earlier, some time between 3.30 and 4pm (with a WU of maybe 4.15 - 4.45 giving a fuller A to BT).
Do NOT stress it though.  You are doing great!

The NW - well, it doesn't sound to me like it was caused by the naps.  It could be pain, teething or wind, wind is VERY painful at times.  How long has she been taking solids?  Intro to solids often disrupts sleep.  The fussing at her solids meal, again could be teething, or maybe she's had enough and wants to get out of her high chair?  Maybe thirst?  Are you offering water with meals.  I know bf will quench thirst but usually it's advised to offer water with meals too.  Just throwing ideas your way really as there's no way of telling if the fussing at meals and the NW and crying are linked or not.
What I can tell you though is that from time to time you WILL get disturbed nights, pain, teething, viral infections...and you won't always know at the time what is causing it.  My DS goes to a few groups per week and seems to pick up EVERY cold and viral infection going, I am told it is good for his immune system but it doesn't feel good when he has a fever for 2 or 3 days, doesn't sleep well and then breaks out in a rash.  All you can do is what you did, comfort her, use your soothing methods, do it as much as is needed.  You know she is a good night sleeper so a cry at night is likely to call for a lot of cuddles for what ever it is that is bothering her.  For me this is what is wonderful about BWing, when your LO cries you go to her, comfort her and help her through it even if you don't know what the problem is.  The soothing methods can be used as much as you need, or you can cuddle for long periods when your LO is poorly, because there is always the ability to get back on track.

Push the A, change activities to keep her interest, record your times, cuddle when needed and let us know how it goes xx

[MommySteezy]

Thanks again for responding. I forgot about the time difference and though maybe I had scared you off with my long-winded. You are right though, it has helped me so much just to write everything down - sometimes because it helps me pick up on things, and other times just to get it off my chest and out of my head.

"What is exhausting for you is that it seems like you're spending all day getting her to sleep, I know, been there, it makes it feel like it was a rubbish nap even though it was a greatly improved nap." -- You hit the nail on the head!!! This is exactly how I feel. I feel like I am chasing her nap ALL DAY LONG! If she is not sleeping I am worried about when the perfect time is to get her to sleep. If she is sleeping, I am worried about when she will wake up and what I will do if she does. It is consuming me. Again, trying to relax but it is so hard!

Perhaps you are right about the A time in the morning being too short. I was just unsure of whether I should go from the A time when I woke her up or the A time when she woke up from the little cat nap I got her to take. I am still playing scared with her A time - nervous of going from UT to OT and not being able to find that sweet spot in the middle.

I thought that we probably were a little late on the cat nap too, but tonight she had a WU time of 4:45 and still took almost an hour to go to sleep. She is playing the whole time and only fussed a little at the end. I'm really hoping that this is not going to become a pattern. That was my worst fear in all of this - that her good night sleep would be effected. I am holding out hope that it is just from teething pain.

She has been on solids since she was 4 months old per the advice of our pediatrician. It has not been perfect all of the time but she is usually happy at feeding time instead of fussy and upset. I haven't been offering water with meals, only BFing afterwards. I have this on my list of questions to ask our ped about at the 6 month checkup.
One thought that crossed my mind was that it might be due to her EW from naps and getting the EAS so out of whack. There are times when she wakes and it is  not even time to eat until almost 2 hours later. Like today (which was awful) she woke up only 30 min after being put down and did not go back down. I think some of the fussiness might be because she is tired and hungry and not sure which should win out.  I understand waiting and sticking to an EAS or EASA routine, but when the EASA is so long I think it confuses her, and then the routine really isn't even serving its purpose anyway, right? Does that seem probable to you? If so, how do I combat that while I am still trying to extend these naps? Would it be possible to do a combination of a 3 and 4 hour routine while we are getting our naps under control?

Thanks again for the advice. It has been so helpful to feel like I have someone to talk to about it all. My husband is a great help and we talk about it but he has a lot on his plate with work and starting a new business so I try not to stress him too much and my friends either don't have children, or have not taken on the responsibility of putting them on a structured routine. hugs hugs hugs for all of your help!

[MommySteezy]

Trying so hard to be positive but after I laid her down for her morning nap she slept for 20 minutes and then woke up. 20 minutes......I feel like crying/screaming/throwing myself off a tall building.

[creations]

Don't throw yourself off a tall building - you are doing GREAT!  Do remember, you might have been struggling with naps for quite some time but it is still only recently that you started to move her A time and you HAVE got results.

I am pushed for time tonight but want to respond as quickly as poss to a few points:

I think some of the fussiness might be because she is tired and hungry and not sure which should win out.

If you truely believe she is hungry feed her.  However, I need to warn that she could be looking for comfort and soothing from nursing and not from hunger.  If she can go 4 hrs between feeds then this gives her a good feed, if you go dramatically earlier she will begin to snack and not get a good feed.  However, another point to be aware of is that if you are not offering water then she might be thirsty and in this case she does need to nurse to get a drink.  I would think that now she is 6 months she would be offered a sippy cup of water at meals.
Many babies go on EASAE even with a good nap (good being say 1.5hr rather than 2hr so there is still a bit of A prior to E iyswim).  As the months go on this will happen anyway because they change their nap routine but not the E, and then eventually move to one nap but still E (milk, snacks, solids).
I don't think she is confused by the routine, there is another reason for her wanting to nurse (as above or other).

and then the routine really isn't even serving its purpose anyway, right?

The purpose of having A sit between E and S is to ensure the baby doesn't associate feeding with sleeping, or only be able to fall to sleep during a feed (feed to sleep prop).  It is ok for an E to be very close to an S so long as the LO is kept awake for it.  Again as she grows there may be times (likely) in the future when there is going to be an E and S clash of times and you will need to be creative about when to feed (early or late), this is not something you need concern yourself with just now, but it will happen.  So, no it won't defeat the purpose of the EASY routine.

Would it be possible to do a combination of a 3 and 4 hour routine while we are getting our naps under control?

Yes, if this suits her you can do this.  My DS for example has silent reflux and would dramatically limit how much milk he took in one go because of the pain it caused him.  Small meals, little and often were needed.  he stayed on a 3 hr E but moved to a 4 hr S timing.  He didn't move to a 4 hr E until solids were introduced at 5.5 months (and then still got his frequent meals because one would be milk at 4 hrs but then there would be solids an hour later).
Running both is tricky to keep on top of in your head so I suggest writing your times down daily.  you will also likely come up with E and S clashes this way.

One more thing, if she is in her cot playing and not sleeping, it's ok to leave her to it, say goodnight and leave.  Return if she cries.  She might just find it easier to go to sleep without you there.

OK, got to run. xx
Remember - no tall buildings xx