Aren't the naps supposed to get longer at this point??

[rimkat]

Sorry in advance, because I know I had a topic on this same issue not too long ago, but honestly, nothing seems to be working and I have no idea what's going on! DD is 8 months and she is STILL taking 35 min naps 90% of the time. Aren't things supposed to work themselves out at this point??

She falls asleep independently, so no props, but when she wakes up, her eyes shoot open, and she's sitting up within a matter of seconds. She doesn't wake crying, but gets cranky quite quickly because of short naps. The only way to get her back to sleep is to rock her, and even then, it doesn't always work. She's STTN.

Here is what a typical day looks like:

WU: 7:00
EA: 7:00
Solids: 9:00
S: 10:00-10:35
EA: 11:00
Solids: 1:00
S: 2:00 - 2:35
EA: 3:00
Solids: 5:00
Bath, breastfeed: 6:00, asleep by 7:00

I recently stretched out the A times to 3 hours, but even when the A time was shorter, her naps were the same...

What am I doing wrong??

[lpperry]

In my experience, if a child is a 30 minute napper, things do not get better on their own just because the child gets older.  If a child is a 30 minute napper, I don't think it gets better on it's own without intervention.

Your night sleep looks great. That is a big thing because if they baby isn't getting enough night sleep, it's really hard to get good naps. 

I would go in when she wakes after 30 minutes and do Pu/PD until she goes back to sleep. I am not a huge fan of the traditional pu/pd, but with an 8 month old, I might do it. I have extended daycare kids naps who didn't nap more than 30-45 minutes, but they were either young enough to do the shhpat, or old enough (10 months +) that I did my own version of pu/pd. I like to go in and lay the baby down gently each time he sits up. I keep my hand on the baby's back until he settles. When I take my hand away, if the baby sits back up, crying, I lay baby back down and put my hand back on the back.  If I can take my hand away and baby stays laying down, I sit in the room until the baby falls asleep.

I had great luck with this.

[rimkat]

Thanks so much for responding

So you would suggest to do this even if she is not crying? Most times, she will wake up and hang out in her crib for 10-15 mins without crying. Eventually she starts to whine, so I come get her. I'm just not sure exactly what I would do, KWIM? Because I feel like if I would come in as soon as she wakes up, and lay her down, she will think I am playing with her. Or should I wait to go in until she starts whining?

[lpperry]

hmm, I don't know. I guess if there is no chance of her getting back to sleep on her own, I would go in right away and lay her back down with hand on her back.  I suppose I wouldn't give her those extra 15 minutes to fully wake up.

[creations]

I think you need to push the A out a little more.  I know she's only just over 8 months but she might need it.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0

I agree with Ipperry that I wouldn't give her those 15 mins to fully wake.

One thing to try is not going into her when she whines (so leave her the 15 mins but then leave her some more).  See if her whines turn into chatting or mantra or crying (this is observation without intervention just to see what she does).  If she cries then obviously go to her but holding back on the whine you never know she might just fuss around for a bit and then decide to go back to sleep.  If you're in the habit of going in then she is in the habit of you going in iyswim so she isn't used to going back to sleep or transitioning for a longer nap.

If increased A and holding back a bit have no positive effect you can try going in prior to her normal WU time and either position yourself ready for IMMEDIATE re-settling methods (what do you usually use for soothing, shush/pat? key phrase and a still hand?  You can even do rocking in the cot if this is what helps her, instead of lifting her use a firm hand and 'jiggle' or 'rock' her whilst she is still laying down.  Tracy advised against rocking but if it's what she is used to then moving the rock from your arms into the cot could help) if she sits up whilst you are soothing her lay her back down and say your key phrase.  You can even try the soothing prior to wake up to help her stay asleep, this would begin to form a habit of sleeping longer and after several days hold off and see if she can extend on her own (much like httj you do it a few days and then watch to see what happens).

Hope you have some success, let us know x

[rimkat]

Thanks for the advice, creations

So how long do you think I should be keeping her up for the first A time of the day? The issue is that I never know exactly what time she wakes up because I have the monitor on very quiet (I`m a light sleeper so otherwise I would be waking at her every stir at night). I usually assume that she wake about 5-10 mins before I actually hear her.

In terms of going in when she is whining, I usually go because she starts whining when she`s pulled herself up in her crib (she doesn`t know how to sit down yet without falling lol). So I suppose I could just go in, lay her back down, and try to soothe her?

[rimkat]

Ok, so just a quick update from this morning. I went in as soon as she woke up at 10:40am, lay her down, shushed her for a bit, but she would literally sit up 2 seconds after I lay her down, so I did this like 10 times..

Eventually I just said our key phrase one  last time and left the room. She hung out, stood up, I went in and lay her down ( did this 2 or 3 times). Anyway, she did not go back to sleep, although she looked like she was about to fall asleep for a bit there... I finally went in and fed her at 11:30 because she was overdue for her feed...

I'm not sure what to make of this...

Will try a longer A time tomorrow...

[creations]

It sounds like she's doing the developmental thing at every opportunity.
Tracy suggests teaching her to get back down herself.  So during A time (NOT S time) you go and play in her room, pop her in the crib do a bit of other play (peek a boo or whatever she enjoys) and when she pulls herself up to standing using the cot bars you teach her to sit back down again by holding her hands (whilst still on the cot bars) and gradually lowering them down the bars until eventually her body/legs are forced to lower and she will end up sitting down.
I have no personal experience with this, DS doesn't pull up to standing yet, but remember reading it so worth a shot.

I think if she is not crying then going in to just PD and say key phrase and leave sounds like worth trying a bit more.  I know I have to leave DS (not crying) or he will start laughing at me!  Sometimes he lets out a loud complaint as I leave the room but I stand outside and hear him settle within a few seconds.
Maybe also try going in before the WU like I suggested in pp - of course you can't try everything all at once though so it will take a bit of experimentation I think.

The first A, hmmm, I'm also often not totally 100% what time DS wakes, but I judge it from when he wakes me, I work out if he sounds like he's been awake a little while or only just woken.  Maybe try adding another 10 or 15 min onto the A but see if you can tell how she's feeling by her behaviour too.  I know with DS he often doesn't look at all tired but the second we walk into his room and I put a muslin on my shoulder he flops his head onto me and promptly yawns like he's only just realised he is tired

keep us posted

[rimkat]

so today was the same story as yesterday

She basically just sat up and was hanging out in her crib for half an hour...

I guess I'll have to try going up to her right away and staying with and try to get her back to sleep...

[creations]

Have you tried increasing the A?  It sounds like she's waking happy and rested so it could be she needs a little increase.
To try to extend I wouldn't even wait until she is awake.  I would go into her room before she wakes so you are ready to begin immediately.

[rimkat]

Yes, I did try the longer A time yesterday, but I think it may have been too long (3.5 hrs) since it took her longer to fall asleep for some reason. I'm aiming for about 3h 20m today and I'll try to go in before she wakes...

thanks again

[creations]

Increase A time slowly.  What were you already on?  3hr?  If so then going from 3hr to 3.5hr might have been too big a jump in one day.  Perhaps you'd already increased some?

[rimkat]

Ok, so here's an update of the past 3 days (I'm only working on extending the morning nap for now).

Saturday: A time was around 3h 15m. I went in at around 30 mins into her nap and held my hand on her. She woke at the usual time, but I was able to shush-pat her back to sleep. However, she only ended up sleeping for another 15 mins or so (so total nap time was just under 1h). I figured from this that she was UT...

Sunday: A time was around 3 h 25m. I went in at 30 mins, held my hand on her. She stirred a bit but didn't wake completely and slept for a total of 1h 10m. I don't know if her not waking was a fluke or not

Monday (today): A time was 3h 25m. Went in at 30 mins, she woke at 37 mins, as usual, I shush-patted her back to sleep, and she ended up sleeping for a total of 1h 20m.

So overall, I'm pleasantly surprised! I just hope that eventually she will be able to make the transition on her own. So I guess my next question is how long should I keep going in for? Should I just keep going in for now in hopes that one day she will just start sleeping through that transition? Or should I stop going in at some point and just wait for her to fall back asleep even if she wakes at the 35 min mark?...

The other thing that I worry about is screwing up our nights with more day time sleep (or is that irrational??). Right now she sleeps for 11-12 hrs with no wake-ups and I worry if increase her day sleep, that she will start waking earlier, or that something else will go wrong. I'm sorry if I sound paranoid, its just that it took us a long and hard journey to get her STTN and I really don't want to mess it up. Because ultimately, if I had to choose between good nights and good naps, I would choose good nights

Thanks so much for reading and supporting!

R

[creations]

Hey - sorry for the delay in replying.  Sounds like you're doing well though, good for you!

The A of 3hr 25 mins with you helping to extend seems to be going really well.  I'd continue doing that another couple of days and see if the S increases a little more.  If it doesn't try going up to 3.5hr (I know you tried this already but it might work with the smaller increments up to it instead of a big jump). This could get her up to a 1.5hr nap.

With the extending.  With some methods of extending you can't tell if they would transition alone because the extension begins before the wake up (for example httj).  It sounds like this may be the case as you are laying your hand on in preparation for the transition.  You can either do it for several days then stop and see what happens (if she doesn't transition on her own then you need to restart the method and do for another several days then stop again to see what happens).  Or you can continue to go in and put your hand on until such a time when she isn't needing the additional shush pat to resettle, this could indicate that she might be ready to go it alone.  Almost like a gradual wean from the extension.

I wouldn't worry about nights getting messed up.  Good day sleep encourages good night sleep.  She'd have to get a LOT of day sleep for it to mess with nights.  Night sleep is learned much sooner than naps which is why you have good nights but still have a little problem with naps.  The increased day sleep is more likely to put her in a better mood and give her more energy for play and learning etc rather than just 'rob' the night sleep.

One more thing - the other naps will all impact on this first nap of the day too.  ie if the second A is short and she knows a second nap is coming she will cut the first S short in the knowledge (habit, routine) that another nap will be coming.  Although I totally understand working on one nap you need to bare this in mind.

DS is v poorly at the moment so I might be unable to respond quickly but please do post an update and I will be back as soon as I can.
Just want to say again - you're doing GREAT!  Going from 35 min naps to 1hr 20 is brilliant,  I'm sure your LO appreciates the effort you're putting in, she has all that extra time to process her learning and have some great dreams.  What a lovely mummy she has
xx

[rimkat]

Thanks so much for responding and for your encouragement

So the past 2 days have been going pretty well. I decided not to go in and see what happens and yesterday she gave me a 1h 20m nap (woohoo!!), but today was only 1h (which is still way better than 35 mins!). I think today's nap may have been shorter because I really had no idea what time she woke up since I forgot to turn the sound on on the monitor and woke up at 7:45, only to see that she was already awake and hanging out in her crib. Anyway, I really had to eyeball this nap.

I have been increasing the second A time as well, so its about the same as the A time in the morning, but haven't tried to extend yet mainly because we are out and about a lot of the time for this nap and she sleeps in the stroller. I'll try to extend next Monday, since our weekends are always so hectic.

Now I know I may be getting ahead of myself but the other question I had is about how long our day will be if actually starts napping 1.5h x 2. Right now, her first nap is usually at 10:30 or so, and if she wakes at 12:00, the next nap should be at around 3:25. If she does another 1.5h then that will take us to 4:55 and then a 7:30 bedtime would be way too early, right? I guess it would have to move up to 8:30...is that too late?

Thanks again!