Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20

[katiepierce]

Claire - I dont know as we are just at the start of this. Have you tried an even shorter A to bed? It makes sence what you say about the total A being the same but the later nap helping to prevent EMW. Would help keep the day a reasonable length as well. Sorry I cant help, having trawled through old posts looking for tips I can see that you've been hear a long time. Sending hugs and a virtual glass of wine! X

Well yesterday was our 2nd day of new set nap routine. am nap 10-10.15, pm 1 - 3/3.15, bed 7/7.15. His pm nap was interrupted by workmen being to loud outside but he quickly resettled. Did bedtime at 7 because of disrupted nap...and he slept till 7.15 this morning! Wow! Havnt had a 12 hour night on a 2 nap day for weeks and weeks!

But yes you guessed it...he refused am nap this morning! Not at all surprised, just frustrated. Wanted him asleep for nap by 11.30 but due to taking ages over lunch and then a nappy issue he wasnt asleep till 11.45. So 4hr25 A time before nap. Have got my fingers crossed for a good one.

Did I do the right thing or should I have tried for am nap at say 10.30 for 15 mins and pushed pm nap out later? Too late now I know but just doubting myself. Just feels like we are stuck between a rock and a hard place...we've got a great 2 nap routine but when he does it and sleeps in we cant do it again!

For the record I hate the 2:1 already!

X

[j.and.e]

claire, whats he like for tired Qs? Also is he happy in the am when he wakes? If so what about letting him nap longer and doing a long bt routine so u can keep him calm and put him down whenever he's tired. Maybe lonp nap and later 2bed will equal up later? We had a bad nite. Ot after long am short pm. Unfortunately cudnt do a nap today until 12.15. Ugh. Expect 2nite will b horid xx

[trimbler]

Hiya,
Haven't been on here for ages, we started cutting the am nap about 4-5mo ago and now starting to get nap refusal but I'm sure he's not quite ready for one nap yet...

Our 'usual' routine at the mo is:
0630 WU
0930 nap 1 (20mins, some time between 0930 and 1000)
1300 nap 2 (1.75 - 2h)
then if a good nap, 4.25 - 4.5h till bed; if a bad nap then shorter.

On a couple of occasions recently he's woken up after 10mins of his am nap and we've had something like:
0630 WU
0930 nap 1 (10mins)
1215 nap 2 (1.75-2h)
then 4.25h till bed, around 1830.

Nights haven't been too bad on the whole, unless there's some other reason (e.g. woken by poo, day or night!)

Today, so far, has been:
0630 WU
0930 PD but still wasn't asleep by 1000 so got up and had big snack at 1045 as he wouldn't have been ready for lunch
1130 nap
(1200 stirring but soon quiet)
1220 woke crying, clearly still very tired, have been going in and out trying to resettle him for the last half hour and will keep trying...

So does anyone have any advice about this stage of transition? Maybe I should try for a CN later on if he doesn't go back to sleep but no idea when! Unfortunately we're going away in a few days for a while to see relatives and this is likely to be really disruptive for his sleep as he'll very rarely sleep unless in a cot (managed to get a short nap by feeding to sleep on the plane a few months ago but not sure if this will work any more....). And when we're back, I do want to try to keep nap 2 as close to 1pm as possible on days when he's with the childminder (Mon/Wed/Thu) - well, that's what works best for her with the other children. So I could try maybe for 1 nap days when he's at home, but as you can see, this 1 nap day is turning out to be a complete disaster so I'm not really keen on trying this intentionally just yet!

Well I'd better go in to him again as he's probably sitting up again

[clairebear79]

j.and.e  - tired cues - few & far between.  Rarely does he yawn or eye rub (although in last few days we've had both).  Today he picked up his teddy & climbed on my knee for a snuggle so I knew he was tired.  Most of the time its guesswork & rarely do I get it right!  Waking happy in the AM - only if he's had a good 11hrs+ of sleep.  If its anything less (like this morning) he will wail & shout until we get him up.  We don't get him out of bed til 6am earliest so he just has to shout to himself until then.  Once he's up, he's usually fine until about 9am when he starts flagging.

I am going to try increasing his A to BT.  And (dare I even say it?) I think I may even have to consider capping his nap.

Katie - that's a great 2 nap day!  And yes I think you did the right thing.  If you shift it all later then you may find yourself doing the same again tomorrow & where do you draw the line?  If nap is short go for EBT & you will be fine.

j.and.e - we used to find the same with long am/short PM.  He would get terribly OT & wake repeatedly at night.  I always found short AM the best route for that reason.

[j.and.e]

I wud let him do a long nap and just adjust bt. If he napped 12.30-3 and then went to bed at 8pm he'd be likely to wake at 7? Yes i think long am is not for us! We had am nap refusal at 9.30 today and had2 b out with DS1 for an xmas activity, so down at 12.15 xx

[katiepierce]

shoot....1 hr 40. Not good. Arh well...looks like ebt at 6 as I've got no chance of a catnap. 6 is prob even pushing it though. Drat...I hate this. Wish I could be a go with the flow type mamma but I just find this so stressful ) :

[trimbler]

Ok so to continue my post from above - he never went back to sleep so got him up around 1:20 and tried to give him a bit more to eat (not really sure what to do about split lunch?? Anyway he wouldn't eat anything, not sure if he just wasn't hungry or was too tired. Then DH came home early and I left it to him as I was so fed up! So he PD at 3pm but didn't get to sleep until 3:30 and slept half an hour. Great So now he's supposedly eating dinner but not really eating much at all so it's a day with little sleep and little food... yuck! Will try for EBT but no idea when now, I think it's just going to be a disaster whatever we try as he's so whiny and horrible now already! Just wondering though, having now had a chance to look through a few more of your posts, if he refuses the am nap do you think it's better to try for a 1 nap day with 5h A time, or less A time and hope for a long-ish nap and a later CN?? I have a bad feeling about this, especially with all the travelling we're about to do

[clairebear79]

Trimbler - when we started we went with 4.5hrs A, then pushed it to 4.75hrs, then to 5hrs.  If he's been used to much shorter A's, he might find 5hrs A big jump to start with hence why you got the OT nap today.  EBT always helps too, esp on a short nap day, and it doesn't necessarily mean he'll wake early the next day.

j.and.e - oh how I would love to have a nap that started at 12.30!  We've never gotten there b/c he has always woken early.  So he has to have early nap & early BT meaning early WU.  I have been trying for MONTHS to push this darn nap out & its still at 11am b/c every time I push it he gets OT & we get EW again.  I swear he'll need the nap cutting before I've got it where it needs to be!  I would also sooo LOVE to let him take a long nap of say 2.5hrs, however, he's not ready for BT after 5hrs A if he sleeps more than 2hrs, and even if he does 5.5hrs A he will still only sleep 10-10.5hrs overnight.  2.5hrs is just too much day sleep for him now.  He's 16 months though so a bit older than your LO's.

Today went:
WU 5.30   (10hrs night sleep)
A = 5h 35
Nap: 11.05 -1.05 (he woke himself)
A = 5h 25
BT: 6.30

He was tired at 9am today but I held him out til 11am.  And decided to try a longer A to BT of 5.5hrs.  He's been very grumpy this afternoon & started to have screaming tantrums at 5.50pm so we decided this was the result of him being tired & got him ready for bed earlier than intended.  He was asleep at 6.30pm.  I am REALLY hoping that we get more than 10hrs.

[j.and.e]

ok this'l b our 1st no nap day. Nw 2am, wu 6am but fell asledmp again 7-7.30. Nap 12.15-2.35. Its 5.30 now. I think i'll go for 6.15 bt and hp he falls asleep at 6.30. Failure! Its 7.15 and he still wont settle. Drat.

[j.and.e]

Claire, i see how ur early nap means early WU, early BT etc. I wud rather get up at 5.30 after a short unbroken nite, than be getting up in the nite with OT NWs. What happens when u try an odd 10/15 min CN in the am to get a later nap and later BT (or does that give nap refusal at this stage?) xx

[clairebear79]

That is true - I would too!  10/15min AM nap he will do no problem, but PM nap can be a fight & even with that short an AM nap he still needs at least 3.25hrs A before he'll take a PM nap & then I have to cap that to give him enough A to BT, even with a later BT of 7.30pm.  Its just not worth doing it anymore unless he is poorly.  Ah I'm sure we will get there.  Glad to see you got a good nap today.  Maybe he wasn't tired enough for BT at 6.15 after that length of nap - esp with him doing less than 5hrs A in the AM.  Or do you think he's OT???

[j.and.e]

:-) will know soon enuf! I reckon OT thou, as he seemd pretty tired before bed and not a great nite sleep. He also has SA and doesnt like me to leave the room until he's asleep. Hp u get a gd WU 2mz. I must admit i bring E 2bed with me when he wakes up, so if hes up 2early he sometimes goes back 2sleep. Xx

[trimbler]

Thanks Claire, I guess I'd just figured that if a pm nap 'worked' at 1pm for a 20min am nap, and at 12:15pm for a 10min am nap, then for no am nap he should go down at 11:30am! But I guess he doesn't follow a nice pattern like that... When you say you started with 4.5h, was that after am nap refusal, or just keeping him up for all that time? I wasn't sure if the time in his cot 'trying' to nap was really that tiring, but next time he refuses it (I really hope not too soon, but suspect that the next few days at least will be crazy trying to catch up on sleep after today!) I'll try putting him down earlier for that pm nap...

Another question - how do you find meals/snacks work when moving to one nap? I'm certainly not wanting to get rid of that am nap completely yet, so if I give him half an hour to settle but he doesn't, then I only have an hour or so to give him some food (surely too early for lunch??) and change him before trying to get him down again. Today, after his short midday nap he was just too tired to eat anything at all, but managed to eat a good amount of dinner after another short nap - he must have been starving by then!

And what would others have done if you'd had a day like mine today - plump for an extra early BT (woke at 12:20 so we'd be talking 4:30 at the latest I guess, with 6:30am usual WU time) or try for another CN? Today was just so frustrating because we really didn't do anything at all, there wasn't time to go out because I was either trying to get him to eat or sleep

[katiepierce]

Claire that looks like a good day to me...balanced A time either side of nap. See what you mean about early to bed/early wake up cycle...if you could shift that day an hour forward it'd be perfect! Must be soooo frustrating. This may be a really stupid question/suggestion but have you ever tried just keeping him up till a sensible nap time, say 12.30, for a good few days? I know this would be a crazy am A time and he would get OT but would he maybe push through it???

J.and.E that looks like a good day despite bedtime. Hope he hasnt got too OT and gives you a great night!

Our day looked like this
7.20 wake
11.45 - 1.25 - nap
6.15 - asleep
Not a good day, he just cant get through on a nap less than 2 hours. He cried at bedtime which he NEVER does so clearly OT. Pants. We've had no cry outs so far though so hopefully he'll be okay. Going to bed soon in anticipation of a bad night, what a party animal!

X

[clairebear79]

11.30am is a good time to try - but it seemed from his nap that it may have been a bit late today.

When you say you started with 4.5h, was that after am nap refusal, or just keeping him up for all that time?

Our situation was a bit different b/c we were starting with EW.  Before the EW he was starting to resist his AM nap, but I foolishly didn't cut the AM nap short enough & the EW soon started.  So I just kept him up 4.5hrs then did nap.  Then I offered a PM CN but TBH more often than not he'd refuse it.  Over time I increased the A time gradually & this had the effect of pushing the nap later.  Though TBH we're still struggling to get it past 11-11.30am!!!!  I think I need to be a bit more brutal with pushing this nap out.

With my LO, if he short napped I'd do EBT but never earlier than 6pm.  You will see lots of mums on here who advocate very EBT eg 5.30 but my LO doesn't often tack on sleep at night so for us it was a big risk.  If your LO will sleep a longer night then EBT should work fairly well.  I probably wouldn't go as early as 4.30 though!!!

WRT meals - when nap is 11/11.30 I usually give him a really decent snack before nap so maybe usual snack plus a slice of toast.  Then I give him something when he wakes so a split lunch.  As the nap gets later you will be able to do lunch before nap.  HTH.x

Katie - no I've never tried the push straight to 12.30.  DS is touchy & very sensitive to OT so I have always been too scared, & yest is a typical example of what happens when I push him.  He was up 6.20, napped 12.15-2.10, asleep 7.30 & up today at 5.30am.  I sometimes wonder if I should just do it, but the thought of what will happen stops me in my tracks - hence why I always try to do it gradually.  Sadly that doesn't seem to work either.

Anyway Ladies - I think I can safely say we are well & truly on 1 nap now - albeit a rather early one.  My mission over the coming weeks is to get it later so we can have a later WU, & I actually think I am going to have to cap his nap shorter in order to do this.xx