Author Topic: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread  (Read 94188 times)

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Offline Erin M

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #240 on: January 11, 2012, 02:54:54 am »
It's funny about the abx, I was on them once during dd1's pregnancy and she was on them a bunch of times as a baby, I wasn't on them at all during dd2's pg but had the abx for GSB and she didn't need them until she was 3 I think, she's been the healthier of my two.  Wasn't on them at all during ds' pregnancy and despite being GSB+, he was born 40ish minutes after we arrived at the hospital (about 10 minutes after getting into the room, stupid paperwork!) so no time for the abx -- since we stayed in the hospital for 48 hours and he was doing ok, they didn't give him any abx after the birth either -- I think he's gone the longest out of my 3 without getting any sort of sickness.  Wonder what the correlation is? 

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #241 on: January 11, 2012, 03:09:11 am »
Wonder what the correlation is?

The abx kills your good flora. Your good flora is what makes up and strengthens your immune system.

Your vagina is a very richly populated place for flora, so as baby passes through the birth canal it gets whatever flora is flourishing (good/bad).  If you were on any abx during your preg it can very likely kill off your good flora that baby is supposed to get, leaving baby with some of the not so good types.  If the bad bacteria outnumbers the good, the immune system is compromised - making room for additional illnesses, food intolerances ect.

I read in the GAPS book that in many cultures they actually "prep" the vagina in the weeks before birth with yogurt soaks to help populate it with good flora (go figure! - why don't our OB's/MW's know this?!)  You can even put a probiotic capsule up there every day just as you would  evening primerose oil. Wish I knew all of that before!

Offline Erin M

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #242 on: January 11, 2012, 03:55:49 am »
Interesting...so it seems we should do a better job making sure there's every opportunity for the good bacteria to be passed on.  So, how does this fit in with c-sections when babies don't pass through the birth canal?  This is all very interesting!

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #243 on: January 11, 2012, 13:16:31 pm »
Interesting...so it seems we should do a better job making sure there's every opportunity for the good bacteria to be passed on.  So, how does this fit in with c-sections when babies don't pass through the birth canal?

You bring up a good point :) From what I've read, the thought is that c-section babies are first colonized with bacteria from their environment - whether its the close contact w/ mom/dad, nurses/drs in the hospital, the air or even just surfaces they innitially come in contact with very soon after birth.  The bacterias culture within the first few days of life - the same as what would happen to a vaginally birthed baby.  

I have read in many natural parenting circles that this is one of the biggest arguments against c-sections atm, because they are robbing the baby of the chance to get Mom's beneficial flora.  Funny, because after I read about it I thought back to all of my friends who have had sections - every single one of them who had sections have some sort of GI issues with their babies... coincidence ???? Knowing what I know now, I don't think so.

 "The gastrointestinal (GI) tract of a normal fetus is sterile
·  the type of delivery has an effect on the development of the intestinal microbiota
o vaginally born infants are colonized with their mother’s bacteria
o cesarean born infants’ initial exposure is more likely to environmental
microbes from the air, other infants, and the nursing staff which serves as
vectors for transfer"

It's that first innitial contact with the world outside the womb that has the greatest impact on what bacterias, fungus, ect get established.

Again, there's always good & bad within all of us, but the key is to have the good outnumber the bad, as the good bacterias  create an army to keep the bad guys at bay, kwim?

I posted about this on the "virgin gut" thread, but NCM believes the 3 biggest factors in the "boom" of abnormal gut flora in babies are 1) Increased use of Anti-biotics used by both mother and baby 2) Increased use of the birth control pill and other hormone disrupting contracptive measures by the mother (apparently these hormone imbalances wreak havoc on your intestinal flora which kills the good bacterias  3)  The decrease in breastfeeding (since the compounds in FF create an environment ideal for bad bacteria to flourish. Also the FF baby misses out on the immunal factors of BM, thus leaving them prone to more illnesses/infections as a child. So that child is then given abx, which kills off even more good flora and the cycle amplifies)

I completely agree with her, but after much reading on the subject would definitely have to add the increase in c-sections to that list as well.  I can't remember if she talks about it in the book or not, but the links are unbelievable!.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 15:54:16 pm by tigerlilly905 »

Offline bjutka1

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #244 on: January 11, 2012, 13:22:59 pm »
Hi, I'm back. Sorry I haven't been in touch.

Julia was getting from bad to worse even after I stopped the probiotics so for a few days we went back to just formula as per our gp to see if she would settle. Well, her diarrhoea did settle but her skin didn't! So at least I now know that it's not the food she is getting that is making her eczema worse.

We went to the biomed dr yesterday and he agreed we had to take it a lot slower with the probiotics. Die off or not, it was just far too much for her (and me!) Her poo was mucusy, she was absolutely miserable and she had a swollen eye lid once, all after I started them. Even after I stopped them, she was not improving.

So we made the following plan:
Start with biogaia for a week, then my friend is coming over from home (Hungary) and bringing me probiotics that doctors use there. It's completely different from the others. It only has a type of soil bacteria (clausii) and purified water. Nothing else. It's meant to kill off the bad guys, encourage the good guys to grow and help immunity. If she tolerates that, we will add lactobacillus acidophilus from Klair Labs instead of biogaia.

He wants me to put the solids (squash, swede, chicken and stock) back into her diet. When I said about the fibre irritating the gut, he just said she needs some and also the probiotics need them to be able to grow. Then he wanted to give her graphefruit seed extract to help the inflammation of her gut but it had soya in it and modified straches so I didn't agree to use it. Then he suggested to order Iva Ursi bearberry tincture from I-herb. Has anyone heard of this? I'm still to look into it.

He confirmed again that she is the worst he has ever seen, such inflammation markers that she has, he only saw with ppl with Chron's disease... She produses virtually no acid, there is no bile production. There is no lactobacillus in her gut but 5 types of bad bacteria and 2 fungi...

It's gonna be a long haul because her gut is so sensitive to change and we can't go in with the KlairLabs Infant just yet.

Thanks for the link about the FCLO! I found a great British link but they only seem to have FCLO in capsules. Is the liquid stuff so much better?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 13:36:28 pm by bjutka1 »
Jutka - lucky mother to 2 gorgeous babies
Peter 25 Oct 2009 and Julia 28 Dec 2010
Married to a loving and proud husband on 25 Aug 2007

Offline bjutka1

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #245 on: January 11, 2012, 13:28:11 pm »
Just read your post, Rebecca. Very insteresting as the dr yesterday was wondering why Julia is SO bad and couldn't come up with an answer.

She was full term with a normal delivery, breastfed straight after birth. I don't think I have severe digestive issues, I have some (bloating on occassion etc) and on the whole eat quite a healthy, varied diet.

The only 2 things I can put it down to is antibiotics during pregnancy and delivery and exposure to formula soon after birth (before milk came in) - but only a few ounces!!! She really shouldn't be this bad...
Jutka - lucky mother to 2 gorgeous babies
Peter 25 Oct 2009 and Julia 28 Dec 2010
Married to a loving and proud husband on 25 Aug 2007

Offline bug_blues70

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #246 on: January 11, 2012, 13:53:15 pm »
There are other factors that play in too, it's not just gut flora... My sister has 3 c-section babies and only one of them has what I would call behavioral problems (though no obvious gut problems). My other sister had 2 vaginal births and they both have allergies and one of them is really bad with lots of food intolerances and asthma. I'm glad you said no to the GSE though, Milo's pretty sensitive (though maybe not so much as Julia) and he couldn't tolerate it. It's very strong stuff - I only gave him 1/5 of one drop. Big hugs and I'm glad you have a good plan in place!!




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Offline kim&savannah

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #247 on: January 11, 2012, 15:10:37 pm »
Edited--there were 4 new replies before I finished this, but I don't have time to read them all right now.  Hope what I said stil makes sense :)

I think I remember reading that C-section leaves the gut more open for population by whatever comes along, which in the case of feeding them formula can be problematic.  I'm sure even BF babies it would just depend on what the mom is eating?  So if you were on a diet high in probiotics, it would probably work out best for the baby?  I can't remember for sure what I read.

So, I was on abx during all 3 of my pgs (I'm prone to UTI's while pg), and my other kids didn't have these same issues, although they did all have MSPI issues for the first year.  But what was different this time around is that I've had a couple yeast infections a year since having Abe.  I'd never had one before that, but its been an on and off again struggle for the last few years.  Wonder if that means our main culprit is Candida overgrowth. . .
~Kim

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Abraham,   11/06
Henry, 5/8/11

Offline Erin M

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #248 on: January 11, 2012, 15:58:33 pm »
Thanks Rebecca, that's interesting!  I appreciate you sharing all your knowledge with my curious self.  :)

Jutka, poor Julia!  I do hope you find something to help her soon!

Megan - I'm trying to think now about my friends and c-sections vs. Vaginal births - seems a mixed bag to me as well but who knows?

Kim - someone was saying the coconut oil is a natural anti-fungal - has it gotten better with all to coconut oil you've been eating?

Offline Mom to M&M

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #249 on: January 11, 2012, 16:16:28 pm »
That was me (saying coconut oil is a natural anti-fungal). Speaking of which I sent DD to school today with a hardboiled egg, apple slices and a piece of Ezekial bread for lunch. Instead of putting only butter on it after toasting it I put on maybe 1/4 tsp of coconut oil as well. Will see if we can work on it that way and then add in probiotics and/or caprylic acid!

So sorry to hear Julia is still struggling. HUGS
Karen: Proud Mama to Marisa (8-11-05) and Matthew (6-5-09) and happily married to my best friend and love of my life since 10-13-01

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #250 on: January 11, 2012, 19:57:06 pm »
Oh ya, all of those factors (abx, c-section, BCP, FF vs BF) don't mean you'll for sure you're baby will have a gut imbalance or neurological issue, but your baby could be more prone to it under those certain circumstances, kwim?  And there's so many environmental factors that come into play as well. I find the topic facinating though. From what I've read, the research really is quite compelling.

Jutka, Aww poor Julia. It does sound like you have a good plan in place!  You really are doing amazing. Her poor little tummy! I can't believe the bacterial imbalance/fungi!! I read a bit about the soil probiotic in the GAPS book. That does sound like it might be a good option :) I've never heard of Iva Ursi... will have to look into it.  Please share what you find as well, I would be interested to know about it.  Also, what did the Drs say about the FF?  Are you thinking you might try the homemade HAF?

Healing vibes to your DD, Karen!!

Kim - from what you say, I think you're right on the money! Has Henry ever had the Microbiology Stool test done?  I think the Candida overgrowth completely makes sense, especially with your history this past pregnancy.

I'm so anxious to get our results back from the Microbiological Stool test/OAT! Part of me is dying to know what's going on inside Arthur's little gut, the other part is almost scared to find out :-\ Feb 15th seems so far away!

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #251 on: January 12, 2012, 01:51:23 am »
So I think Megan was right about the enzymes.  I didn't give any to Arthur today and after I nice long detox bath quite a bit of his face rash is going away.  So perhaps the dose we were working was too much ??? I'm going to keep him off of them until the rash completely disappears and try again with the lowest dose that he seemed to be fine with.

He's now up to 25 bil CFU/day of probiotics, so I think that's got to be pretty therapeutic!  I also gave him some more coconut oil today which he seemed to enjoy :) 

I think next will be trying some chicken livers again. I may puree them with some broth and see if that helps him keep them down. 

Oh Erin, if you aren't sick of info :P  This was the article/audio where I first came across GAPS. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/07/31/dr-natasha-campbell-mcbride-on-gaps-nutritional-program.aspx  I've posted this before, so you may have already read it, but it's quite informative. It explains NCM's thoughts on how babies get gut dysbiosis and how it manifests to other things. 

Offline EloysH

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #252 on: January 12, 2012, 03:44:16 am »
Quote (selected)
There are other factors that play in too, it's not just gut flora...

Definantly.  I have significant yeast problems yet Kai's digestive stool analysis shows now yeast.  He has several strains of bad bacteria in overgrowth but they are not soo bad, none of them are the nasty types such as Colostridium.  He has very low levels of the good bacteria though which ibviously is a problem...  but anyway what I am getting to that his MAIN problem seems to be biochemical in nature.  He has very low zinc and he has Pyroluria. This means his body cannot utilise and absorb zinc andB6 and he needs to be on gigh doses for 6-12 month to correct this.  Without b6 and zinc one cannot detoxify foods or produce digestive enzymes and gut dysbiosis is a result of this biochemical imbalance.

His food intolerances and food sensitivites seem to be stemming from low zinc and Pyroluria... his liver is under a huge work load as it cannot produce digestive enzmyes to much capacity or stomach caid for that matter without zinc.   You need zinc to produce stomach acid.   I know his liver is struggling because without his supplement he can't tolerate as many salicylates or hard proteins such as well cooked eggs, he wakes at night around 3am for a few hours and developes drak circles under his eyes (classic liver issues) does egg farts and awful sulphur poo.


tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #253 on: January 12, 2012, 03:54:03 am »
He wants me to put the solids (squash, swede, chicken and stock) back into her diet. When I said about the fibre irritating the gut, he just said she needs some and also the probiotics need them to be able to grow. Then he wanted to give her graphefruit seed extract to help the inflammation of her gut but it had soya in it and modified straches so I didn't agree to use it. Then he suggested to order Iva Ursi bearberry tincture from I-herb. Has anyone heard of this? I'm still to look into it.

I was thinking about this and reading through the GAPS faq... NCM sometimes puts patients on zero carb diets (so only meat, soup stock and fats) until the gut is in a more stable place, because the fibre can sometimes be so detrimental.  Probiotics needing fibre to grown.. hummmm... I don't know for certian, but I think that's always been a myth.  I know that inulin is used as a binding agent so probiotics can be put in a powdered form, but I don't believe they actually *need* the fibre to grow... I'll need to read more about that one.

Off to read about Iva Ursi.. then I really should sleep... :P

Posting as you posted Eloise - I completely agree. What you are saying is crutial and our ND also believes what you are saying about the biochemical component.  The Zinc is key for certain.  The sulphur poop smell is classic here as well in both boys (it's almost acidic smelling.. sort of like apple cider vinegar - sorry for the TMI)

Eloise, for liver detox, have you ever read about dandelion tea? You can make it quite mild and that could potentially help Kai's liver.

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #254 on: January 12, 2012, 04:32:52 am »
Eloise, I wanted to ask - the brand of zinc picolinate from iherb is by "NOW"... and it contains rice flour (which is illegal on gaps) :-\ Are you familiar with any other brands?  Unfortunately I don't have a chemist I could work with on supplements.