Author Topic: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread  (Read 94199 times)

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Offline EloysH

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #330 on: January 16, 2012, 11:26:02 am »
Megan: you asked -
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Eloys - do you have to get them tested for B6/zinc levels first or is it safe to just start supplementing?

Yes it is best to get a blood test for zinc. it is called a zinc plasma test, and please disregard the ranges that are given, bioned Dr's use a much high range.  My zinc is considered normal by my GP, however I biomed Dr says it is very low and needs to be increased,  so you can see interpretation with someone well versed in nutritional science is so important.  Biomed Dr's don't test for B6 as the blood level is meaningless.

  I can find out safe low dosages for you.  I know for small children for zinc it is about 1mg/kg +5 mg.  For adults 1mg/kg + 10-20 mg.  Starting doses of b6 I don't know, I would need to ask, but I can tell you how much Kai is on, and he's 13 kg if you want.   I will go find the bottle in a minute and post it.

Rebecca, just to second your thoughts about behaviour and die-off.  Kai is on a pure e.coli probiotic at the moment, and he is more cranky than usual.   He swings from normal to anger outbursts and yelling "no!!" alot.... and has huge tantrums normally but now he is more so like that.  I know the e.coli probiotic gives strong amine reactions also it makes them extra cranky.  He has tonnes of bad bacteria and hardly any good bacteria also. So I think he is on constant die-off, with his normal probiotics anyway. I just go with it, I have a vision of a much calmer an less irritable boy in about 6 months  :)    I need to add that Kai has high copper so as his body start absorbing zinc, his copper automatically will go down, and this is yet another thing he will have to deal with chelating the excess copper - again behavioural reactions.  SO this is going to be a rough 6 months, but what can we do,... it has to be done for his gut health!

The other thing I wanted to say was that if you have a family history of drug and alcohol issues, then you are spot on B6 is crucial.  The other genetic factor from a biochemical side is the methylation cycle.  It can be tested via a whole blood histamine  blood test.  If you have high histamine, your methylation cycle is not working correctly and you are undermethylating.  I will try topost a pic of the diagram so you get an idea of what it is. It involves alotfo detoxifcation process in the brain and has implicatrions for dementia, addiction, and other degenerative brain diseases.  Over 50% of alcoholics are found to be undermethylators and similar for other addictions.   Some of the worlds greatest arists and thinkings were also undermethylators, they tend to be very intense people who worry alot.  I have now gotten our whole immediate family tested for zinc, copper, and whole blood  histamine and of course pyrolles.  Interestingly, my 4 year old and a severe undermethylator and he has no diet restrictions but he worries very deeply and finds it very hard to cope with his emotions.  He is not a pyrolle though - phew!  And he has no anger outburts in sight, unlike his brother who is a pyrolle, and we know that menas he has no b6 or zinc!!!   Hubby has a family history of drugas and alcohol and he has both low zinc and is undermethylating quite severely.  THe treatment for undermethylating is zinc and methionine.  Methionine gets the cycle going again.

Offline EloysH

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #331 on: January 16, 2012, 11:27:41 am »
The methylation cycle:

Offline EloysH

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #332 on: January 16, 2012, 11:45:48 am »
Don't forget EPSOM salts baths (Magnesium sulphate or magnesium chloride).  Very important to support the body when reaction to foods, in die off or dealing with any toxicity :)

We put them in Kais bath every night , 1/2 cup.  It supports the body to detox, the mag is absorbed through the skin.

Offline bjutka1

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #333 on: January 16, 2012, 20:40:45 pm »
I'm thinking 2ml skj juice is way too much for Julia! She was up from 3am to 6am last night with terrible wind and diarhoea. I can't work out if this is all a die off or she just can't tolerate probiotics full stop... Maybe I'm just going too fast as someone suggested to you, Rebecca? Would you mind sending me the details of the GAPS practitioner you found? I'm thinking of getting in touch. It would be so good to get some reassurance. I tried chicken stock and chicken today and had diarrhoea again tonight. Again, is this a die off or a sign that she is not tolerating this???

Eloise, what you wrote about methylation cycle really hit home. I'm sitting worrying about it at the mo. I have been losing my mum to dementia over the last few months while having the worst time of my life with Julia's sickness, having to give up breastfeeding etc. In my sleep deprived state, I'm not sure I got you right. Is it a whole blood histamine test you need to test this? And is this linked with zink? What's pyrolles? You need to take zink and methionine supplement to get this fixed? Could you take it as young as Julia? Or is this more for us, adults?

Wedo epsom salt bath but only use 50ml of it in a half a tub of water. Is that enough or should I up it?
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Offline EloysH

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #334 on: January 16, 2012, 20:53:14 pm »
Jutka: That would probably be enough epsom salts for a wee bub!  I do thikn it is die-off too, but you are right, to get advice and reassurance, as this her syptoms are pretty severe, it is so good to get someone you cna trust to reassure you.

  A whole blood histamine test tests for undermethylation - yes.   The blood histamine level needs to be between 0.45 and 0.5.  Mine is 0.8, my sons and hubbys 1.2 which is very high.   YOu need someone who is well versed in it to intpererate, like a biomed Dr.  Usually Methionine is not given to children until some headway is made with their zinc status, we are still waiting for Kai's next blood test to confirm how his zinc is going, then we will add methioine to his supps if the zinc is coming down. The Dr's don't like to do too many things at once. Usually zinc is the most urgent thing to address first, as it is so important for digestion and everything else.  You can give zinc to Julia directly, but you will take to get advice on dosage.  I started Kai on zinc and activated B6 when he was 10 months, via a droplet form, you would need help to get a product she can tolerate.

Pyrolles is Pyroluria.  Essentially it is  a blood disorder that inhibits zinc and b6 absorption and many autistic children and food intolerant kids with ADHD, behavioural disorders have it.  Amost all have some kind of gut damage because their zinc is so low. These kids need to be on zinc and B6 for life, and Kai is one if them.   Here is some more info about Pyroluria:

http://hellcat.hubpages.com/hub/Pyroluria-Do-you-have-it
This is written by a naturopath is Australia that specialises in mental illness and Pyroluria.

http://www.tvernonlac.com/copper-toxicity.html
THis is about Copper and zinc and the relationship between the two, it is strongly related to Pyroluria, most have high copper because their zinc is so low.

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #335 on: January 17, 2012, 01:21:14 am »
I'm thinking 2ml skj juice is way too much for Julia! She was up from 3am to 6am last night with terrible wind and diarhoea. I can't work out if this is all a die off or she just can't tolerate probiotics full stop... Maybe I'm just going too fast as someone suggested to you, Rebecca? Would you mind sending me the details of the GAPS practitioner you found? I'm thinking of getting in touch. It would be so good to get some reassurance. I tried chicken stock and chicken today and had diarrhoea again tonight. Again, is this a die off or a sign that she is not tolerating this???

From the Mamas I have been talking to in the gaps yahoo group, some babies can only tolerate 1 little drop of SKJ at first... I posted the one response I got on the previous page that I received.  Other babies can only tolerate a few little granules of probiotic powder at first. Since Julia's stool test came back with such high levels of pathogens, I'm not surprised she's having such a strong reaction. Honestly hun, I *thought* the reactions we were getting from Arthur were "bad", but it's die off for certain.  Having experienced it myself after I upped my probiotics intake, now I know for certain what he's going through. We're pursuing with meat stock.  I did a Lamb roast in the crock pot today and gave him the drippings. He loved it and drank almost 1/2 cup.  His rash flared a touch, but calmed after his detox bath. I've also backed off of his Vital Immune. We're back to just using the KL Infant Probiotic and just one little pinch of Vital Immune. One mom told me it took 5 months before the worst of their die off subsided... but she sllooooowwwwlllyyy continued with increasing SKJ, probiotics and bone broth and now they are working through intro successfully.

I will PM you the details of the gaps practitioner I'm in contact with. She's a lovely lady. Hopefully she can help you or at least provide you with some reassurance.. I know she said she's currently working with a Mama in Germany as well with a GAPS baby, so she does work with international clients.

Offline Mom to M&M

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #336 on: January 17, 2012, 01:37:18 am »
What is SKJ?
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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #337 on: January 17, 2012, 01:43:51 am »
SKJ = Sauerkraut Juice. When homemade, it's very rich in natural occuring probiotics.  My Ds1 couldn't tolerate it at first either. We had to go super slow with him, and now he's fine with it.  He can also eat the chunks of sauerkraut now.. before he would get really bad eczema and bumps on his upper chest.  Ds1 has completely calmed down now. It really must have been the Vital immune causing wicked die off. I'm only giving him one pinch now. I will do that for the week and try a tich more next week. I can't believe how strong a reaction those probiotics are giving my guys!

Offline EloysH

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #338 on: January 17, 2012, 02:23:17 am »
Can we pool a collective list of die-off symptoms to watch out for in kids?
 
For my Ds2: anger outbursts, cranky and lots of night waking, finding it hard to get back to sleep.

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #339 on: January 17, 2012, 03:28:00 am »
Good Idea :)

Ds1 - anger outbursts, disrupted sleep (naps and nighttime) - needs extra cuddles and support, rash like bumps/pimples on upper chest, cheeks and temples.

Ds2 - face rash, small bumps on chest/legs (almost like hives). I honestly can't say his temperament or sleep have really been effected yet by die off (thankfully).

Myself - itchy lips, small bumps on arms that were itchy, fingers went "pins and needles". I have lowerd my probiotic though again, b/c I don't want to detox into my milk.

I really liked this article about die off. The section about "Healing Reactions are not Allergic Reactions" really helped me. http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/articles/help1.php

ETA - Just thinking, I should add Poop symptoms to die off - Ds1 extra runny diarrhea *yuck*
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 04:17:18 am by tigerlilly905 »

Offline Mom to M&M

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #340 on: January 17, 2012, 12:12:44 pm »
DS: disrupted sleep, red cheeks, very frequent smaller BMs
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Offline bjutka1

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #341 on: January 17, 2012, 14:34:16 pm »
Julia: diarrhoea, wind, worse eczema, worse sleep, little red rash on face

I phoned Harry from Custom Probiotics and he sending me a free sample of the Infant Probiotics. Very nice guy. I told him what happened with KL probitic and he said that that tells him that Julia's gut is in a very bad shape. I gave her too much too quickly and basically started a war btw the good and bad bacteria...

We are going on with chicken stock and chicken and I'm getting consistent diarhoea. What's most annoying is that is happens overnight in the wee hours of the morning! Last night is was 1am... :( But I'm gonna push through as well as I'm certain from what everyone is saying that it's a die off.

Not sure about skj for now since I'm getting such a reaction anyway??

How do you go about the fats? Could I just add a little coldpressed olive oil to her stock? Would she not react even more? Got the fclo today but gonna hold off for a while.

Rebecca, the mum you were talking about that had5 months of die off - did she just keep the bub on meat stock and meat for 5 montsh then? Would that be enough nutrition wise?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 14:57:46 pm by bjutka1 »
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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #342 on: January 17, 2012, 14:46:59 pm »
We've had a great morning so far! :) Last night before bed I put a small amount of Calendula ointment on Arthurs face. This morning his rash was nearly gone. For breakfast he ate about 1/8 cup of Meat Jelly (served cold, made from the Lamb roast last night), had a tich of coconut oil and a small drop of SKJ. the result - NO RASH!! This is such a bizzar process! I guess they are just so sensitive. It makes sense to me that the die off can result in "allergy" like responses. I guess when the body is in high healing mode it detects everthing as something potentially "bad"... even the healing foods. I guess slow and steady does win the race.

Jutka, I was looking at my medicine dropper this morning, 2 ml seems like a lot of SKJ right now. As it is, Arthur only has about 0.5 ml, if that. Maybe just try dipping your finger in the SKJ and have her lick it off.  Do that once/day for 5 days, then maybe try increasing it to 2x/day and so forth.

I got some great advice for different BLW gaps food options. One mama suggested cooking down the soup stock until you had more of a gelatin. Let the gelatin cool in the fridge and then cut it into cubes for baby to suck/gum on. I loved that idea.

It was also reiterated to me how important FATS are at this stage - even moreso then proteins. Get as much meat fat into these kiddos as possible. That's what really helps to seal the intestinal wall as it's healing.

The meat jelly was a huge hit for us. I just put the drippings from the lamp roast in the fridge overnight and it turned into a jelly. Arthur could actually spoon feed himself. He was very proud and seemed to like the process :)

Posting as you posted Jutka. I'm so glad you got in touch with Harry. He was really great when I talked to him aswell. He said I did the same thing w/ the Vital Immune... the war between the good/bad bacterias just got really intense and it was hard for Arthurs body to cope.

The Mom I spoke to with the 5 mths die off did just meat stock/broth/meat fats and breastmilk. She was bf'ing still doing full gaps herself, so I'm not sure what to suggest RE: FF... :-\  NCM does believe that the meat stock is enough. Perhaps if you could start to get a little fresh juice in her as well? I would think with meat stock/meat fats and fresh juice you would be getting enough nutrition wise. ???

ETA - And for fats, I still say focus on animal fats as opposed to fats from veggies/fruits (avocados, olive oils ect) The animal fats are a different kind of fat - mainly saturated (BM is also majority Saturated fats too btw!) Avocados and Olive Oils ect are moreso Polyunsaturated, which is quite different.  I would suggest re-reading the chapter on fats in the gaps book, it starts on pg 255. She breaks down the fat composition of different type of foods on pg 259.  That should help with more info, but again, animal fats are crutial right now. That's all I'm mainly going to focus on.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 14:57:07 pm by tigerlilly905 »

Offline bug_blues70

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #343 on: January 17, 2012, 14:51:30 pm »
NCM does believe that the meat stock is enough.

For a little while sure, but 5 months though? for a growing, developing baby?? That seems pretty stretched to me... I personally wouldn't do it without BM or at least juices or something for vitamins and minerals, as well as calories. JMHO.

Good idea on the gelatin, I'm going to try that as we get some every day with our lunch.




Megan

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #344 on: January 17, 2012, 14:54:26 pm »
For a little while sure, but 5 months though? for a growing, developing baby?? That seems pretty stretched to me... I personally wouldn't do it without BM or at least juices or something for vitamins and minerals, as well as calories. JMHO

I agree, that's why I mention the juicing too :)