Author Topic: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread  (Read 94185 times)

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tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #360 on: January 18, 2012, 01:19:54 am »
Ok, so after a wonderful day with my boys I want to add to my list of die off symptoms.  At first, I wasn't sure if it was coincidence that Ds1's behaviour went out the window, but now I'm certain it was all die off related since he was such a gem today. 

When he's in intense die off, not only does Ds1 have the anger outbursts, but he's very defiant. He will purposely do the opposite of what is asked of him. He throws things and will also purposely go out of his way to try and hurt himself - mostly banging his head against the wall. At first I thought his poor behaviour was a result of a playdate we had with a very bratty boy from the neighbouring town. (not a lot of kids around here so it's hard to be selective when it comes to playdates :P) I thought perhaps he had picked up the negative behaviours from that playdate, but again, looking back the day following the playdate was also when we started the high dose of Vital Immune.  We're only doing a pinch of the VI now in conjunction with the full dose of KL infant and he's back to his wonderful self! What a relief!!

The rest of the day with Ds2 went really well too. I managed to get about 1/2 cup of meat stock in him which he really enjoyed.  Almost no rash all day. A bit of flare up, but by the end of a nice long bath today it was virtually all gone (incl his face!) YAY!

Offline Mom to M&M

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #361 on: January 18, 2012, 01:42:58 am »
Glad to hear about the better day!

I guess it could be die-off but I'm just surprised that it's so severe then today with the chin and arm rashes. It's been a couple of weeks of less carbs, one week even more strongly so (though far from no carbs). Otherwise I feel fine, especially considering I was up with DS a lot last night.
Karen: Proud Mama to Marisa (8-11-05) and Matthew (6-5-09) and happily married to my best friend and love of my life since 10-13-01

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #362 on: January 18, 2012, 01:50:54 am »
Hummm.... if it's not die off, I'm not sure! I hope it feels better soon. Do you have any calendula ointment? I find it's very soothing.

So I asked about dosing FCLO and here's the response I got: " We do FCLO (cinnamon flavoured) and proEFA omega oil. We started slowly, and have built up to 10 drops. He initially got hives when I added the proEFA (he is allergic to some fish) but again I persisted and we go slowly. If I give him those fish oils as well as sardines it sometimes tips him over into a breakout, so I usually separate them for different meals of the day. He loves the FCLO!!!! I was so surprised as I struggled initially to keep it down. It's fine now and I just chase it with a piece of pineapple."

Offline EloysH

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #363 on: January 18, 2012, 02:13:49 am »
Aah yes in the food intolerance circles we call that " oppositional defiance." Most commonly associated with amine reactions - amines are packed full in the bone broths. I am so glad Kai can tolerate amines. Interestingly they describe die- off reactions from probiotics as amine reactions.  I think the effect in the body is quite similiar essentially both are causing some level of toxicity. Another reason the be on b6 and zinc - to assist the liver to mop up the toxicity.

Offline bug_blues70

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #364 on: January 18, 2012, 02:22:27 am »
hmm... maybe I should try giving Milo a drop of the FCLO so that maybe he'll like it and then he can take it and I don't have to!!! ;D

I've doubled our probiotics dose (meaning we are now doing 1/8 tsp for Milo and 1/4 for Ellen). She has a rash around her mouth (but I've seen it before even before we ever started doing probiotics) and Milo has been more like his old self for the past couple days... throwing fits at the drop of a hat and his sleep has gone back to his old norm last night and today :-\ Oh and he's started banging his head on the floor too. I'm not sure if it's die off though... it's a toss up between that, the dairy I've been eating, and teething as he is getting a new one on top.  I just don't understand how you ladies can know exactly what is causing what symptom. I never feel like I know what's going on. :-[

posted at the same time Eloys. hmmm. that makes me wonder - i not only upped his probiotics starting yesterday, but I gave him a lot more bone broth yesterday and not so much today. Maybe that's why it seemed like it was starting to taper off this evening?? hmmm...




Megan

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #365 on: January 18, 2012, 02:25:04 am »
Aah yes in the food intolerance circles we call that " oppositional defiance." Most commonly associated with amine reactions - amines are packed full in the bone broths. I am so glad Kai can tolerate amines. Interestingly they describe die- off reactions from probiotics as amine reactions.  I think the effect in the body is quite similiar essentially both are causing some level of toxicity. Another reason the be on b6 and zinc - to assist the liver to mop up the toxicity.

Yes, having a little knowledge about FAILSAFE (though I'm definitely not as well versed as you are, Eloise), it's interesting to see the connections through GAPS as well. Lots of cross-over to be certain. I guess ultimately you're working towards the same goal though, just different approaches.

Funny you mention the liver detox, Ds1 had some dadelion tea with me tonight. He did like it with a bit of honey in it. Without the honey, it really isn't the most pleasant tasting tea.

Is it just me, or does anyone else hate picking the bones out of soup stock? :P LOL, I have to say, it's probably my least favourite job.

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #366 on: January 18, 2012, 02:29:32 am »
Megan, maybe try backing off just a tich on Milos probiotics again. It still could be too much.  If you're worried about amines, read the post I put on the PP from the girl I'm corresponding w/ on the gaps yahoo group. She suggests cooling and freezing the bone broth portions straight away and using within 3-4 weeks. 

My boys could be amines sensitive, but I'm going to try and push through slowly. Hopefully as the gut heals, the sensitivities will heal as well, right? That's what I'm going with anyways :)

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #367 on: January 18, 2012, 02:33:43 am »
Aah yes in the food intolerance circles we call that " oppositional defiance." Most commonly associated with amine reactions - amines are packed full in the bone broths.

See, I was just thinking about this again though... we haven't decreased Ds1's bone broth consumption, we've actually increased it the last couple days (incl today)... The only thing we've decreased is the Vital Immune probiotic.  So for him, I'm pretty certain it was die off related to the high probiotic, not amines.

Offline Mom to M&M

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #368 on: January 18, 2012, 02:59:31 am »
REALLY hope it's just die-off. Cause otherwise I'm at a loss. If it's die-off and I don't change anything I'm doing how long do you think it will last for?
Karen: Proud Mama to Marisa (8-11-05) and Matthew (6-5-09) and happily married to my best friend and love of my life since 10-13-01

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #369 on: January 18, 2012, 03:05:15 am »
If it's die-off and I don't change anything I'm doing how long do you think it will last for?

Geez, no clue I'm afraid. :-\ I have read it really varies from person to person as to how long die off lasts for... but what I have heard is that once the worst is over, the following episodes of die off are much less intense.  If you want it to subside quicker, I would up detox baths (preferably every night if possible) and perhaps consider something like dandelion root tea which can aid the detox process.  Fresh juicing also helps detox as well and of course upping your water consumption. As Eloise mentioned, extra zinc and b6 could help speed things along too.

Offline bug_blues70

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #370 on: January 18, 2012, 03:26:18 am »
Yes, I do freeze it right away - i'm pretty picky about the taste and won't use it if it's been in the fridge more than a day or two. And lately I've been able to get chickens from a local farmer and i'm pretty sure they're frozen upon slaughter. I do see some places I could tighten up the timing a bit, but not much :-\ I think I'm going to continue for a couple more days with the probiotics though... it seemed to be tapering off a bit this afternoon and i still feel like it could be other factors, so I need to hold at least one thing steady and that's an easy one (whereas teething isn't, kwim?) I also need to stop eating dairy again I think. It's even harder now b/c I've tasted it again and b/c I'm not really convinced he's reacting to it... i've been eating it since New Years and he's been the best he's ever been since then up until yesterday. I know, I know, it takes time to build up and all that :(

Jenn - i hope it clears up soon!!




Megan

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #371 on: January 18, 2012, 12:43:43 pm »
Thanks Deb :)

Heres another good article about die off http://www.wholeapproach.com/newsletter/archives/2003/06_June.html

Apparently increased food sensitivity is also a sign of die off as the body is on high alert while fighting the bad guys.  This I will have to agree with for sure.

Megan, I think it's a good idea to eliminate other factors for sure. I wasn't sure that Arthur's chin rash was teething or not when it first started. After the teeth cut and the rash was still there I knew it was something more. Again, for us it was too fast a jump into the newest probiotics.. but at least I know they are really working towards the healing process now.  Wow, good for you for being so anal with your stock! ;) LOL, I'll admit, I do not freeze mine. Mind you, it doesn't last that long in the fridge - maybe 4 days tops... but, as I said, I don't feel like amines are our real issue.



Offline Mom to M&M

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #372 on: January 18, 2012, 12:55:21 pm »
Forgot to say - DD is doing well, thanks for asking. Starting to wonder if it's just a rash related to the cold and dry hands - she does wash hands probably too much at school and all with a lot of soap. Sigh.
Karen: Proud Mama to Marisa (8-11-05) and Matthew (6-5-09) and happily married to my best friend and love of my life since 10-13-01

Offline Erin M

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #373 on: January 18, 2012, 13:09:49 pm »
Karen, we get that every winter, I generally just coat their hands in Aquaphor before bed (though I'm sure coconut oil would work fine too ;) ) and then cost them again before I go to bed.

Offline kim&savannah

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #374 on: January 18, 2012, 14:26:12 pm »
Karen, we get that every winter, I generally just coat their hands in Aquaphor before bed (though I'm sure coconut oil would work fine too ;) ) and then cost them again before I go to bed.

My kids haven't been willing to try the coconut oil, but yes to the aquafor--we used to have to sneak in after they were asleep because they can't stand the feeling of greasy or oily hands, but now we do it before bed and then put socks over their hands and they wake up nice and soft again!  

Rebecca--I actually get kind of irritated skin deboning the chicken--not sure why, and its not a new thing, so nothing to do with die off, but all the chicken fat on my hand makes my skin kind of itchy, so not my favorite activity either.

And as far as how long the rashes can last--when I first started GAPS, I broke out in a small red rash around my mouth in a couple spots.  They were probably there for about a month, maybe 6 weeks and then I noticed it had mostly cleared up.  Now, 5 months later, I can still tell where the rash was, but i think its only becaue I know where it was--its pretty much gone.  I know it can vary from person to person, though.  Mine wasn't anything extreme, just took awhile to clear up.

So, are undigested food bits always a bad sign?  I've noticed that even some foods that Henry does well with pureed, if I give him the whole food, there are undigested bits in his poop.  I know my other kids always had that, too, and I understand that means he isn't really digesting all of it so not getting full benefits from eating that food, but is that a sign of something worse?  Can I keep going?  He's not showing any other symptoms of anything. . .
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 15:27:08 pm by kim&savannah »
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Savannah,  6/04
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