If she's hungry, why won't she eat? Bit of a rant, heart-pour

[anna*]

So it turns out I've been settling a hungry baby.

Audrey is big - between 91st and 98th centiles. Exclusively breast fed. She goes 2.5-3hrs between feeds during the day. At night she will often (but not always) do one longer stretch say from 7pm til midnight or 1am, and after that will wake every 3.5hrs. Sometimes I can give her a dummy when she wakes up and she will sleep for another 30-60 minutes, but other times she won't.

This evening and the past few evenings she has been very fussy and I have put it down to OT/OS. This afternoon she basically cried from 3pm til bedtime, apart from during her bath which she loves. She was nearly crying too much to BF at all, but eventually calmed down and did 10 mins on R boob, and then a couple of minutes on L boob but she was crying and coming off. So I assumed she wasn't hungry any more. I knew she was well burped, and I thought not hungry, and she just wasn't settling enough for me to put her in her crib, so in desperation I defrosted 4oz of milk and gave it to her in a bottle. She took 2.5oz, smiled and cooed at me, lay on her back, unswaddled in her cot (NEVER happens) and drifted off peacefully to sleep.

How can I get my supply up? Fenugreek? I have porridge for breakfast but confess I often miss lunch because with everything going on it is often 4pm before I realise I haven't eaten. I simply can't pump after every feed - Stan is neglected enough as it is. I really really want to pump but just don't find the time... so sad about this, I am supposed to be taking Stan to the pantomime on Thursday but now don't have ANY EBM in the freezer. Also, for my Xmas treat my mum has offered to have Audrey overnight for one night, but again I don't have any milk to give her. Should I just let her have formula? I was really determined not to but now I don't know if I'm being precious about it for no good reason.

Feel really sad tonight.

[Shiv52]

{{{{hugs Anna}}}}

Is pumping one breast while feeding with the other an option?

Fenugreek would be a good start.  And also eating and drinking regularly should have a good affect on supply.

At antenatal classes we were advised to careful in the early months of using formula as it stretches the baby's tummy and can make it difficult for them to be satisfied with just BM from there on in.  I noticed Shivi posted something similar from her lacatation course yesterday to so its just something to be aware of.

{{{hugs}}} These early months can be so draining xx

[deb]

This is how Josie acted when she was beginning to really reflux and wanted comfort-feeding. I'd nurse her, she'd latch on hungrily.... for maybe 3 -5 gulps, then break off and cry b/c she wasn't really hungry but looking for comfort (in her case milk to soothe the reflux burn). Sometimes she'd polish off a bottle and sometimes not; I think the speed at which she got the milk from a bottle might have played into it.

The good news is that because of the frequent nursing/putting her to breast, I got a pretty good supply after a couple days of that. But do set a timer if need be to remind you to drink 8-12 ounces of water, or carry a water bottle with you if it helps (can Stan help be your special reminder?) to help you keep up the fluid intake. Also, if you do oatmeal, you can soak rolled oats overnight and in the morning it only takes 5 minutes to cook 'em (I soak in the cooking water to save time, just measure out 3 parts water to 1 part oats, plus I add a dollop of whey to help ferment them a bit overnight and break them down); I even soak them in the cooking pot and then add some maple syrup and breakfast is ready in under 10 minutes, and some mothers find oatmeal helps with supply.

Just a couple random ideas.  

[shivi]

Emma was exactly the same in the evenings, though earlier in her life (week 2 to 7 were the worst for this). It was all down to my exhaustion  - very time specific low supply as I had OS and OAL otherwise all night and early morning to lunchtime....

I rested as much as I possibly could, got as much uninterrupted sleep as possible (went to bed AS SOON AS they were both settled and left the mess downstairs to DH, he brought her to me all night long and did all the resettling and I basically thought myself not to wake), ate dried fruit and nuts when not eating a meal, got DH to make huge pots of soups and we defrosted them on the go, drank loads etc etc and pumped after the lunchtime ish feeds. After every feed, two minutes after running on dry each side. It helped loads, as did beginning to feed Emma before she'd woken from naps completely (used this method from then on) as she was a very impatient little Miss and didn't want to feed if there was no letdown in the next minute....

Hugs, its so tough juggling two...

And yes, agree on the stretching issue with formula.....its in all the gastroenterology research right now :-(

S x

[anna*]

Last times I've tried to pump and feed at the same time, all the milk just runs off down my belly. Just can't seem to get it right. Maybe I will try again tonight.

I really don't want to give formula, BUT I don't want to have to miss out on doing anything with Stan, and I don't want her to be hungry! If I'm going to pump it is going to be overnight/morning, and I guess that won't help with my evening supply?

I am sure it's not reflux. She doesn't have any signs of reflux, lies down flat happily, no wet burps (well, maybe one per day where she just makes a 'yuck' face). And was happy as soon as she had had that extra milk. Pumping all day just isn't an option. Shiv I wish my DH was as helpful as yours but he is basically useless, it is not worth the stress and drama to get him to do more.

So. I don't know what to do! I guess I will take Fenugreek and try to remember to eat. Although eat WHAT I don't know. I just wish if she was hungry she would feed! I do get second, third, fourth let downs, and sometimes she will feed for 20-30 mins (a 'normal' feed is 10 mins one side, occasionally an extra 5 mins on the second side).

With Fenugreek, do you have to keep on taking it, or do you just take it for a while and then stop?

[Roseii]

Anna I had this dilemma with both, always more satisfied on a bottle of ebm than boob Although I think it's partly that that lovely milk comes flowing out of the bottle so it's easier for them to gulp down kwim? It might be that rather than her truly being hungry? Perhaps with your mum you could do a dreamfeed at say 10pm on the breast then leave her with your mum for the rest of the night? (what a lovely prez btw!)
Anyway I did introduce a bottle of formula around 20 weeks, I agonised over it but it was a bit of a sanity saver in the end...
((hugs)) xxxx

[Shiv52]

Shiv I wish my DH was as helpful as yours but he is basically useless, it is not worth the stress and drama to get him to do more.

Mine is pretty rubbish too Anna in terms of nights but I did take Shivi's advice on the early night Df and DH did seem to beable to manage that without too much whining.  So i did last feed and then left him to it to get her ready and settled for bed.  Then I'd head to bed shortly after a cuppa and some BWing!  He'd then bring her to me in bed at DF (we always did it at 11pm (ish)).  I'd feed while half dozing and then he'd take her back and do the resettling and i was able to get straight back to sleep.  So even with being interupted sleep with the DF not having to get up out of bed was huge.  And it meant i got 9pm to 3-4am in bed and it really helped.  

Last times I've tried to pump and feed at the same time, all the milk just runs off down my belly. Just can't seem to get it right. Maybe I will try again tonight.

I didn't do alot of pumping but I do remember there was a knack to it.   I did find it hard to fit the pumping in but the morning was the best while DD1 was having breakfast/TV.  

[Shiv52]

Although I think it's partly that that lovely milk comes flowing out of the bottle so it's easier for them to gulp down kwim? It might be that rather than her truly being hungry?

I have read a lot of posts where mums say this.  That even if they are just comfort sucking the milk just drips in whether they actively suck and are hungry or not. 

[anna*]

She hasn't had a bottle that many times so I'm sure she's not 'holding out' for a bottle of EBM, just frustrated that there's not enough milk there I can't leave her with mum until I have at least 3-4 feeds in the freezer because there's no knowing how many times she'll wake up! Usually doing a dream feed results in one extra waking (i.e. 10, 1.30, 4, 7) as opposed to 12, 3.30, 7. Mostly right now I'm just sad about Thursday I was really looking forward to going to panto with Stan. He is so patient (most of the time) but tbh if I was him I would be getting pretty fed up of me too!

Audrey is in a crib in our room (and on my side of the bed, even) so not sure how it would work to have him do the resettling. I can do all the feeds without having to get out of bed - tbh, nights aren't really the problem it is late afternoon/bedtime where we're struggling.

[deb]

Switch sides of the bed with DH for a few days? Even for 2 nights?

If you can give him the baby and Stan to entertain for 15-20 minutes 2x/day right after a feed you might be able to sneak in a couple of good pumping sessions; even if you don't get much out of them, you're still giving the breast stimulation. I also fund that reminding my DH of the cost of formula vs free breast milk (especially over the long haul) helped motivate him to suck it up for at least a couple of days and give me two free hands to pump with. LOL

[anna*]

Night feeds are fine - she feeds til she stops (usually very short quick feeds and nothing I can do will make her feed longer) does a quick burp and then goes back to sleep - occasionally there's some crying but it's getting less frequent, and in that case we would both be awake anyway! Nothing to be gained by DH getting her out of bed.

I've popped 3 Fenugreek this evening. It's hard coming up with quick and healthy meals, especially when Stan is at nursery for lunch and DH rarely eats it.

[Shiv52]

Thats great your nights are so good.   

Are you cluster feeding in the evenings?  I wonder would a few evenings of offering very often would help that fussiness and increase supply as well as the fenugreek etc?

Is Stan at nursery every day? Would it be possible to fit a pumping session in there?

I hear you on the lunches.  I find it hard to come up with much that I can be bothered with!  But even good old soup and bread or beans and toast does me in a pinch. 

[anna*]

I'm worried that it's cluster feeding that's leaving me 'empty' at bedtime? Today she nursed at 2.30pm (10 mins one side), woke a bit early from her last nap at 4.45, nursed again (10 mins one side). Had her bath at 5.45, nursed again at 6.15 (15 mins/5 mins both sides), then 3 oz from a bottle at 7pm.

Stan is at nursery full time from this term. But if I pump in (say) the am, won't that only increase supply for that time? Wouldn't I have to pump late pm to increase for bedtime feed?

[deb]

You might try pumping in the AM just to increase supply for the sole purpose of having some to set aside for storage, like when you're not there and she has to have a bottle of EBM.

I tried pumping at bedtime and had some luck there; what we eventually did - bear in mind we were FF for a while with Josie because she'd wounded me so badly with a bad latch that I HAD to take breaks and heal, but once I had enough EBM stored up we did it with that - was DH would put her to bed with a bottle of (eventually) EBM while I pumped for the next night, and some set aside as well. By the time she woke during the night, I had enough to give her a full feed. When we had two LO's and I was pumping for Natalie, J was sometimes put to bed earlier (by DH as well wile we got it established) and sometimes parked in front of the TV or the computer for some online games while I sat with her and pumped; took more tweaking with two LO's but we got a rhythm down. And then at 8 months Nat discovered straws and couldn't be bothered to nurse for 5 minutes when she could chug the whole 8 ounces or so in 30 seconds, so that was the end of nursing, sadly. I did keep pumping for a while after that though so she'd get as much EBM as we could till it gave up.

[ENMS]

(((HUGS))) Anna. I know how frustrating it is.  Don't have much advice to offer as I am in the same boat as you are trying to increase my supply.  If the fenugreek doesn't work and you really have an issue with supply, there is domperidone which can be prescribed by your doctor to increase your supply. My doctor prescribed it to me today, stay tuned to know if it works!