Help with Naps

[mrsteacher77]

Hi All~
First of all, I'm so appreciative of this board and all its wisdom! My daughter Ava is 12 weeks old on Wednesday.  She has no reflux and we swaddle religiously, but no paci.  We have been working so hard on establishing a routine and a good wind down.  We were doing well for about a week there.  She used to not go to sleep easily and now I feel like I can really put her down drowsy, but awake and she can put herself to sleep.  I have been watching her awake times like a hawk and felt like I was really getting her into the wind down in the right zone.  So now, our new problem is waking after 30-45 minutes. 

   Here are the last few days EASY: (I would like her day to start and end at 7:30)

Saturday
Wake/Eat: 6:45 am (slept from 7:38 the night before and DF at 11pm)
A: 6:45-8:00
S: 8:20 (Took her 20 minutes to settle to sleep) – Woke at 9:10am.  Tried to resettle and slept another 20 minutes in my arms.  Set her in crib and slept until 10:45 am.
E: 10:45 (I know this was way too late for a 3 hour EASY, but we worked so hard to get her to sleep!)
A: 10:45-12:05
S: 12:27-12:57, resettled and slept from 1:03-2:13
E: 2:20
A: 2:20-3:20
S: 3:20-4:00, resettled 4:10-4:45
E: 5:00
A: 5:00-6:30 (would not catnap, gave bath)
E: 6:35
S: 7:10
DF: 10:15

Sunday
E: 4:00am (slept from 7:10 the night before)
Wake/Eat: 7:30am
A: 7:30-8:45
S: 10:15-11:05 ( would not go to sleep.  Normal wind down, very drowsy, put in crib.  She kicked her legs and wiggled her head back and forth.  Various attempts at resettling until she finally fell asleep at 10:15)
E: 11:15
A: 11:15-11:35 (Since she didn’t sleep all morning, we fed and then diaper change and immediately back down)
S: 11:35-1:45 (This nap we used a blackout curtain and it seemed to help.  We are SO desperate!)
E: 2:00
A: 2:00-3:10
S: 3:10-3:50 (40 minutes)  Resettled, Slept for 25 more minutes (Time 4:20)
E: 5:00
A: 5:00-6:55 (no catnap, very cranky, bath)
E: 7:00
S: 8:30 (would not settle to sleep, clearly overtired)
DF: 10:30

Today
Wake 7:00am (slept from 8:30 night before with no NW)
E: 7:15am
A: 7:15-8:00 (clearly showing tired signs)
S: 8:30-9:30 (took a long time to settle to sleep and needed lots of shh/pat)
E: 10:00am
A: 10:00-11:20 (left the house and walked around mall in the stroller)
S: 11:20-11:50 (finally fell asleep in stroller, but only for 30 minutes)
E: 1:00
A: 1:00-1:45 (clearly exhausted, so only fed and changed diaper, went through wind down, very drowsy, into crib)
S: 2:20-? (she laid quietly in her crib for a while, then fussed, then cried.  We did wind down again and she finally fell asleep at 2:20.


We are at a loss for how to help her sleep for longer.  She is very cranky by the end of the day and we’re finding it hard to console her.  I’m not getting strong hunger cues so I don’t know if I need to move to a 3.5 hour EASY?  I’m so scared of her getting overtired, though and I’m scared of messing up her night sleep, which is really good considering her age.  One more thing, I feed her pumped BM in a bottle during the day and nurse her for the last feeding before bed, DF, any NW and the first morning feed. 
I appreciate ANY help or advice you can offer.

[ZacsMumme]

Few quick things, and you will hopefully get some more replies.
First, you are in the developmental age now here short naps are common, sometimes no matter how much tweaking we do they will short nap!

How long is her first A time before you try to PD for a nap?
Is she waking happy or crying, or grumbling en crying?

Have you tried W2S?

Oh and lastly, watch out for a huge GS, 12 weeks is a common age for them

[creations]

Hi there
It looks like the reason she might be taking a long time to settle (and waking before a good full nap length) is due to UT (under tired) which suggests increasing the A time a little.  Sometimes if you start your wind down too early LO might be reluctant to sleep and fuss about (or resist with hard crying), the fussing and resistance can actually take them beyond their recommended A time and then cause OT (over tired).

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0
The guidance A time for 3 months is 1hr 20 to 1hr 30 mins.  It looks like you're aiming for a 1hr 15min A time at the moment, which just might be making it difficult for her to settle.

I would increase her A time by 10 mins and see how it goes.  Expect it to take a few days for her to adjust and settle in to the new time.  You might need to have a low key activity to stretch the A time out without over stimulating.
It would be helpful (to you and to us) for you to note that A time is any time that LO is not asleep, sometimes you are recording the A time as finishing earlier than the start of the S time (although I realise she is taking some time to get to sleep, this still counts as A time).

If you have CN refusal I would go ahead and get on with the BT routine pretty much straight away.  I know you don't want her getting up earlier in the morning but chronic OT can set in if you have lots of long As to bed and eventually this can disrupt the night sleep.  Avoiding OT, in my view, is worth the risk of an earlier start.  Once the naps are extended and the routine going a bit better you can look at shifting the entire day along.

Your nights a great to she is showing ability to self settle and transition at night.  Brilliant!
Has she ever day napped for a full nap on her own (say 1hr 30 to 2hrs)?

(posted same time as ZacsMumme)

[mrsteacher77]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your replies!  Here's how the day ended:
S:2:20-2:50 (exactly 30 minutes).  I resettled and then she slept from 3:00-5:00!
E: 5:00
A: 5:00-7:00 (Bath, BT routine)
S: 7:00

I know the end of the day A time is WAY too long, but I can't ever get her to catnap.  Here are some responses below:

How long is her first A time before you try to PD for a nap?
Is she waking happy or crying, or grumbling en crying?

Have you tried W2S?

Oh and lastly, watch out for a huge GS, 12 weeks is a common age for them

Her first A time of the day is usually 1:10-1:15 minutes
When she wakes she never cries from the start, she just moves around, kicks her legs and then will start to just make "hey, I'm in here" noises.  I never go in then, I always hope she will fall back asleep, but that has only happened once.
I have been to chicken to try W2S...

Has she ever day napped for a full nap on her own (say 1hr 30 to 2hrs)?

(posted same time as ZacsMumme)

Yes, she has napped a full nap, but not in a while.  Today was great, but I was really unsure if I should wake her up at 4 (which would have been her feeding), but I figured she was so sleep deprived, I should just let sleep.  I woke her at 5...I don't know how long she would have slept.

I will work on extending the A times tomorrow.  Does that also mean I should adjust her entire EASY?  For example, should I now shoot for a 3h10m EASY if I extend the A by 10 minutes?

[ZacsMumme]

Does sound UT athe start of the day, and due to shorter naps OT by end of the day. (As creations says really ) at this age I would be tempted to leave to sleep during the day but no longer than 3 hrs. That is just my opinion though. if she is generally healthy and feeds/dirty and wet nappies are good she will be okay if fed a bit after 3 hours.

The 3 hr easy is really a guide, it is hard to follow it exactly, so listen you your LO as well, and your day doesn't need to be exact IYkWIM

[mrsteacher77]

Thanks so much for your support.  I really have to fight my natural instinct related to "schedules."  I thrive on them and I'm finding it to be the most difficult part of being a new mommy.  When I am truly honest, I don't really know how to read Ava's hunger cues.  I know that a growth spurt is coming up and I wonder how I will know she needs to eat more when I'm so obsessed with her napping well.  AHHHH...so many insecurities as a mommy....

[ZacsMumme]

It's so hard, I never knew Z 's cries really other than pain (he was a refluxer) they all blended into one. I think around 5-6 months they got easier to read. People don't tell you that you just don't 'know' this stuff from the get go.

I get the routine stuff. Sleep was my nemesis, Z me er did it and I in he needed it. I would make myself sick over it. In hindsight all I can say is you can try to help your LO to sleep, but you can't make them. It's not worth the anxiety and stress. If you can't get a good long nap, just offer more and less A time.

If she is well, and has a good feed and burp and a bit of A time, if she starts to fuss it is likely either tired or OS. The problem is, sometimes it's both or too late ie OT

Hevea read of the naps FAQs below, I would try W2S, you can always APOP her back to sleep if you wake her accidentally.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=649.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=213387.0

[creations]

Everything ZacsMumme has said, and...
You don't need to increase your EASY to 3hr 10min to fit in a longer A unless the nap goes v long, short napping often leads to there being some A between S and E because the nap hasn't reached as far as the E (hope this is making sense!)
The 4th month is the time to start moving towards a 4hr EASY.  If naps are regularly taking you over the 3hr mark on E you could start to shift your EASY a bit at a time (which is basically what ZM has said about it being ok to go over the 3hr so long as LO is healthy etc).
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=120362.0
The links above give some info on making the move towards a 4hr EASY and also, for schedule lovers, a whole set of timed schedules for making the transition slowly (adjust times according to your LOs morning WU).

FWIW I didn't know DS's hunger cry until he was 10months old and had had a hospital stay.  During his illness and recovery I suddenly discovered his hungry cry as he needed to eat so often to make up for what he had missed.  Up to then, on BW he'd never had the chance to cry with hunger.
You are not alone in not recognising cries xx

[mrsteacher77]

So, another question popped up this morning.  We extended A time and she did well...I just did quiet things with her for the end of it in her room with dimmed lights.  She went to sleep and woke after 45 minutes.  I just went in and picked her up and held her still.  She fell back asleep within 5 minutes and when I laid her back in her crib, she slept for another 30 minutes.  My question is, should I have let her attempt to go back to sleep on her own?  I haven't had success in the past in leaving her.  She usually will kick her legs and wiggle her head for 15-20 minutes before getting into an all out cry.

[creations]

It can take a few days to adapt to the new A time, or possibly you need another small increase.
Like ZacsMumme suggested you can do W2S which means you don't wait for her to wake up at all.  After doing W2S for several days you can try stopping and see what happens, some LOs get through the transition alone then, other don't so you'd need to keep on doing it a while longer.
hth