Witching hour - what's normal? 7week old

[JudyLee]

Hi guys.
While we are taking it in turns to go deaf from DD screams I have a question.
The witching hour - I remember with DD1 that the evening were always difficult.
But - 7week old - she goes down usually fairly well during the day, she has reflux but white noise and a propped up bed seem to do the job.
We have found pickup and shh/pat works better with her reflux than just pat/shh lying in the bed - she seems to be worse with that...
But anyway - come 4pm she feeds, will catnap for 45min then have another feed, bath, book and then it starts.
She'll show signs of being tired at about 5.40 so we'll put her down. The yelling starts and continues even up in our arms and so we'll pat/shh, she'll almost fall asleep - put her down or as you are putting her down, then she'll yell. Wash rinse repeat. I'll feed after 45mins of this, and then it repeats in a cycle usually until 8pm.
Is this normal? My heart goes out to her as she yells, I don't know how she finds the energy to do so night after night.
Thanks for reading!

[Smurfette]

6-7 weeks is usually the height of the fussiness stage. Do you want to post your routine in the EAS format so we can just double check your routine for you?
How do you put her down for naps? Is she an independent sleeper?

Hang in there!

[JudyLee]

Hi Smurfette thanks for replying!
Yesterday was:

E 0550
A 0550-0640 wind down of about 5mins at present. Hum and swaddle
S 0710 Can mantra cry for 25 or can yell and need help for first 20 then self settle for last 5

E0920
A0920-1020
S1030

E1220
A1220-1255   very sleepy here
S1300

E1510
A1510-1620
S  1630

E 1700
S didn't - micro cat naps
E 1800
Managed to get her to stop crying at 1830 and she self settled over next 30min
S1900

E 2235 Dream feed

Today so far

E0320  did a poo and woke up!
S 0355 but self settled with no initial help from me

E0635
A0635-0735
S 0800

To get her off to sleep - due to her reflux we found that pat/shh in cot made her worse, so we do pick up and pat/shh on shoulder and put her down when she stops crying and before she's asleep. Generally as we put her down of course she cries again...wash rinse repeat until she gives up and then self settles after anywhere from 5min-20min help from us. Now she's a bit older the relux is getting better so we've found that towards the end of her giving up we can sometimes do pat when she is lying down. Not often - more often than not she arches and screams worse than ever. But sometimes it works.
White noise cd music as well is playing during the day but not at night time or at witching hour. We did try it at witching hour but it seemed to make it worse.

But on a brighter note - last night the witching hour was a lot shorter -only 1700-1830 and then as I posted she then self settled for the next 30mins. That's a first for her. Yah.

Oh during the witching hour I was working on the pattern that if she cried for 45mins during the settling period I would then attempt another feed. So did two lots of them last night. Sometimes on nights when she goes to 8'ish, I do more obviously.

Hope I've written clear enough.
Many thanks!
 

[Smurfette]

HI there

Have you tried shortening her A times at all? Some LOs can only handle about an hour and that's being *asleep* at the hour mark. Overtired babies are a lot harder to get to sleep and they will cry more. And it could be that she is just getting OT as the day wears on. You might want to try start to wind down at the 45/50 min mark. It could be worth a shot.

I've heard it around here before that usually picking up and laying back down is more disruptive for reflux babies, but if that's working for you, then by all means, go for it!

How bad is the reflux? Is she FF or BF?
Is she swaddled?
FX for a better night tonight!

[JudyLee]

I've only just started to lengthen her A times as she was only making 40mins some days and we seemed to be having an undertired nap problem. Now probably an OT problem?
I'll try starting to wind down at the 45min mark and see how it goes THANKS.
BF fully.
Swaddled in the Aussie swaddle version (arms up).

Today has been worse in that she is waking every 45min and needing assistance to go back off to sleep.
I'll try the wind down at 45.
Many thanks and definitely FX

[Smurfette]

Lol, I had to google 'Aussie Swaddle' to understand fully what you meant!

When you extended the A times, how fast did you move...ie from what A time to what A time in how long of a time? Is there a chance you just maybe went too fast?
How bad is the reflux? What is your let down like? I found with my DD, that if I expressed a bit before she nursed, it helped her to not gulp so much air in as she tried to keep up with my forceful let down. Have you tried that to see if it helps?
When she cries at the 45 min mark, what kind of cry is it? Fussing or down right '  I need you!" cries?
Does she take a pacifier?

Ok, sorry, that is just a bunch of questions and not too much help. Let me know how it goes in the next day or two and we'll go from there.

[*Ali*]

FYI
 http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=1439.0

[JudyLee]

I think I did go to fast with the increase of A time. Went from her having an A time of 35-40min total, to an hour. She initially seemed to cope (we'd been busy and missed getting her off) so went with the flow. WRONG.

Reflux is improving. But it is definitely a cause of her wakeups. I watch her and she's fast asleep, she then seems to gulp, chews a bit and then wakes screaming her pain cry. Cause she is fairly settled with it - the Paed Dr doesn't want to do meds. We've got the cot tilted as high as it will go. I believe I have a fast let down as well - she's fairly messy and you can see her gulping at the beginning of the feed. If she slips off I can see that I'm spurting so...to express before - how long for? Just past the let down stage?

At the 45min mark - it's a down right help me now cry! Full belt yells.

She totally refuses the dummy. We've tried five different sorts - to be honest - they seem to make her gag and throw up so not going there.

But saw the community health nurse today for her weigh in and she is still putting on weight beautifully. So I asked their opinion and they said at 8weeks there is a growth developmentally and they get more bossy. Since I'm putting her down awake, doing pat/shh and using white noise, just do what I am doing and watch for that sleep window.

So I'm rereading the sleep chapters and I'll go back to a longer wind down and watch for that first yawn. I was going past the first yawn in attempt to get her A time to increase...

Thanks so much though for talking me through this.

[Smurfette]

No problem, I hope I was of some help.

With regards to  expressing before you nurse, I would latch my DD on, feel let down, pull her off and just express into a towel or something for a min or so. Just enough so it wasn't coming at her so fast.
Maybe there is a better way? But that's all I did. It does get better as they get older as they are able to cope better, but it made a difference for us just doing it that way.

WRT a paci-yeah my DD never took one either-just as well-it was one less thing to wean later on.

Let me know if you need more help.

[Erin M]

You've gotten great advice, but just wanted to add that for dd1 and ds, the witching hour behavior was totally normal.  I would nurse more often just do they wouldn't scream so and I could never get them to settle even though I knew they were so, so tired.  You're at the worst point for it, but 3 months things were noticeably better by 4 months you never would have known it was ever a problem.

[JudyLee]

Thanks so much guys for the reassurance and advice.
She actually self settled today after only one pat/shh from me. Took her about 20mins, but she did it, so I must be on the right track.
And last night's witching hour was only two hours not four so our eardrums are much relieved! LOL.

[JudyLee]

OMG! There is quiet in the house. We did the wind down and she quiet protested for about ten minutes, one pick up and pat/shh, then back down to very quietly protest for two mins, then no noise self settle for ten minutes. SHE'S ASLEEP!!!!
Thank you sooooo much.
Can't believe the silence, it's beautiful.
Bless you guys.
FX we can continue the sleep education of baby, mummy and daddy and that she'll repeat this for us!

[Smurfette]

Yeahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   

[Erin M]