Spirited 8 month old still has very frequent night wakings

[Bex09]

Yay for the independent fall asleep! What great progress.

[LouiseV]

That is a HUGE step!!!!! Well done!!!! And you can start moving further and further away once he consolidates this. That is soo exciting!!
And remember if he has done it once he can do it - if he has an 'off night' - its probably just that!!!

[Dee_hnh]

He has a lot of "off nights" but throughout his short life, he has typically went back to his usual pattern. Hence why I never made a big deal of the 45-60min wake ups. Until I realised it's been months! We are now stuck with up to 2hrs of trying to resettle him each of the 2 current NWs. I feel more exhausted now than when I had to get up 6-12 times. I think I'm going to take over the resettling right from the start this week and take a break in the "please accept daddy at night" project to try to figure out why is it taking so long. I'm blaming DH here for doing something which is preventing DS to resettle, which may be a bit unfair. But until I see it for myself and I'm not just arriving at the meltdown stage, hard not to point the blame at him! This sleep business is such hard work. Wish it was as easy as sorting the naps!!! *sigh*

[LouiseV]

You sound just like I was - those long night wakes are some of the hardest things I've ever had to go through.

I really advocate listening carefully to their cries - I am not talking about crying-it-out or anything, but if the crying is on and off a bit it could be that they are trying to settle themselves and not actually calling for you and if you let them try to do it they can fall asleep. After months of desperately trying everything this is what worked for us at least - when I made myself listen (and we made a plan and stuck to it - is if he sounded genuinely upset I went in and told him I wanted him to sleep, kissed him and left again)....but I only ever had to do that twice.....the rest of the time I had to admit he was more 'stopping and starting' (or mantra crying) and he could put himself back to sleep.

I think it helped too that he'd had months of me being there (which hadnt worked - but HAD left him feeling safe and secure) and months of being prepared for trying to do it on his own. And he was nearly 11 months, not a tiny baby, and he had a cuddly, white noise and his sleepsack as sleep associations to help him.

In the end, this was the step I struggled to take (listening to him crying, even though when I was really honest with myself and could admit it wasnt true screaming it was more of an "im trying to settle" mantra cry) but the one that got him sleeping through (although hes sick this week so thats all out the window!!!)

Maybe just try listening and being absolutely certain its not a mantra cry :-)

You will get there! We are all there with you

[LouiseV]

Oh one more thing on the husband front:

DEFINITELY do it yourself even though its hard....and make him sign a contract stating that this is "sleep training" (for want of a nicer word!!) week and your word goes at night!

If things arent consistent you are just wasting your time I think.

Work on getting Daddy more involved later, for now whats important is getting your wee man settled and knowing what is expected of him. If hes feeling clingy for you hes not going to accept daddy anyway (and typically its mum they want at this age)

Keep up the good work - only really dedicated mothers like you are still working this hard to sort things out

[Dee_hnh]

Ahh....nearly cried by the end of your 2nd message Louise! Soooo tired from last night. Worst one since he was born. I think it was harder than giving birth actually!!! Woke every 2hrs or so, and took nearly 3hrs first time (he decided after trying to fall asleep in his cot that playing would be much better idea....so we left him to it until he wanted to try to sleep again), and then about 90mins or so each other time. I didn't resettle at 5.15 after him finally falling asleep around 4.50am. I thought heck, start your day then as need to wake you up at 6am anyway. Went to bed at 6.30pm last night so 5.15am insn't so far what you'd expect.

Well, I  did as I said and stepped in that first waking and he was still hysterical even with me trying to settle him. I'd had some wine since he never wakes up until much later than he did. So meant couldn't feed him and rule out the starving hypothesis until later. Feeding settled him and he had a good feed, but it didn't enable him to sleep. So what in the world is going on, who knows. The only way he would fall asleep is without his dummy (?!?!? Ready to let go if I wonder), singing himself to sleep initially on my shoulder, then throwing himself onto my arms to be held and then had to cuddle him really really tight while laying down on our bed. Once he was falling asleep but not actually fully asleep, I could move him to his cot. He'd whimper, but took his dummy and few pats and finally asleep. So strange. I've noticed this behaviour started when he got up to 2hr45mins A time. Yesterday was the first 3hr A time and the night went really badly. Could it have something to do with his A time? Does he need to go back to 2hr30 for a bit? Or just a sign that he needs it to increase some more.

Oh, some of his crying last night was matra crying for sure. He usually doesn't have a mantra cry, he just sings himself to sleep and it gets very very very loud the more tired he is. To the point where I get the giggles and struggle to not laugh. Sometimes I fail miserable because it is so loud and out of tune. Bless.

So confused! But sleep training must start for real now, whether daddy wants or not. I can't have many nights like this when back at work and having to drive to/from and do visits on 0 sleep. He's at childminder tomorrow as well, and then at home with me Wed until next Monday. Should I start tonight with his sleep training (more like sleep coaching really, isn't it?) or wait until tomorrow night since we'll be able to follow his predictable routine Wed onwards.

Thanks for the support. We've hit another time when it is very much appreciated!!!

[Bex09]

Oh hugs lovely, I know it is tough. I am wondering if your DS has a sore throat or teething pain, because whenever C will not take her dummy this is the reason. It always happens and then a few days later a cold will come out and we think ahah that is why she didn't want her dummy. Is he off his food at all?

Just as another point can he replug his own dummy? Does he need it to fall asleep, so is it a prop? He isn't waking for it to be replugged is he?

[LouiseV]

I think before you start doing this consistently and "once and for all" you should get everything clear first. This is what I think you really need to do:

1 wean the dummy (even if hes giving it up - if he cant put it back in it needs to go. I used the bye bye binky method and it worked absolute wonders - just google it) Basically you put teeny wee holes in it to diassociate your LOs brain from loving it so much

2 Get your EASY really sorted - get as much help as you can on the EASY forum and really get his overtiredness etc ruled out

3 Make a plan, write it up (for falling asleep, wakes etc etc) and stick it on his door so you can remember in the night what you do and what you dont do. At this age picking babies up just really unsettles them - even when they are reaching for you. PUPD basically just becomes PD and you can stay with them or whatever but make it the same every time no matter what. If you do pick them up its straight back down again (the hug is just reassurance, not enough to quieten them down)

4 do you have white noise playing? I cant remember sorry! If not, its brilliant. LOUD and rumbly for his age

5 stick with the early bedtime if its working for you in terms of his EASY and keep getting up early - we'll tackle that early waking etc later on. Do you have strong coffee!?

I think dont start until you feel absolutely confident in what you are doing. I also recommend a website we have here in New Zealand called the sleep store, which has some great readings under the Articles section (I think!...a bit sleep deprived sorry!) and might give you some tips and a good understanding of whats going on.

You WILL look back on this!!

[Bex09]

Just wanted to add hun that although, yes the dummy may be a prop, it can really help with reflux and so you may not want to wean for that reason. It doesn't not have to go, it is your decision about what is right for you and your LO.

My DD could replug her own dummy by 6 mo because we worked so much on replugging during the day and because I wanted her to have it because I knew how much it helped with her reflux. Also weaning of the dummy at this age can be hell! Tracy suggests doing it by 5 mo if you are going to do it as it can be so hard after that. If not then it is often best to wait until DS is a toddler and can understand more with the use of the dummy fairy or such.

[LouiseV]

Thats a good call about the dummy - only wean it if you really think its what part of the problem might be, otherwise they can be a great tool for comforting and can help with reflux etc. You'll know what the best thing might be to do there

[Dee_hnh]

Sorry, thought I'd replied but clearly I didn't. Well, after his last session at the childminder's he had an 8 hour stretch!!! Couldn't believe it. Sure, had to put him down at 5.30pm but I totally made the right call. Can't know of course if a CN would have ended up with same result but somehow I doubt it. Total daytime sleep was about 2hrs 45, which is less than he ususally gets at home. Normally if you let him wake up on his own he sleeps 3hrs30 -3hrs45mins.

We had a bad night again last night (3 NW but each took 60-90minutes to get him back down), and I realised I had to get a "ready meal" as no way dinner would have been ready in time for him (downside of BLW - no freezer stock of food for him). That was tomatoe based. It also had dairy in it, which he has not had because he struggled to tolerate dairy through my bm. And today he did 2 poos that were quite solid and he seemed to struggle a bit. Sooo..that's 3 possible issues causing the bad night. I can deal with the first 2, so no dairy or rest of ready meal today. Need to give the dairy a go since just read goats milk isn't suitable for under 12 months. I'd been given him some goats yoghurt for calcium/protein but worries this isn't good for him either. So no acidic foods again and see how it goes.

Re the dummy. He is totally refusing it at night. Usually we would have it near where he can see it and he'd take it when he wanted it. Now, the sight of it makes him wriggle away and cry hysterically. Nap times are differnt and he will take it at times, other times refuse it. He can replug himself easily. Has been able to do it way before I even knew he could. I use to leave him when the dummy fell out of his mouth and he didn't wake up, and later would see him with it in his mouth. thought I was going mad until DH said, he had actually seen him grab it and put it in. So I figure i'll let him decide what he wants to do with his dummy. Didn't know about the refleux thing though. Shame he has decided he doesn't want it at night anymore. But I will keep it in his cot in case he does. Oh and Bex, he does have a raspy voice at the moment. Got it pretty mcuh after I had read your post Bex! No cold in sight, so maybe it's reflux again? If it keeps it up I'll just go to GP and see what he says since HV told me she didn't think it was.

Yes, we use white noise. I've started putting it on louder. I think it is making a difference to how fast he calms down/falls alseep, and stays asleep. DH always turns it down since we sleep in same room as DS. I like the white noise personally. Am a light sleeper so understand why DS seems to love it. I think I can't sleep without it now! *Lol*

Re using PD. I have had no choice but to use it more now as his behaviour in arms and in cot are the same! Although he seems to settle quicker out of arms. I lost my tempter last night with DH who had taken him out of cot and was just holding him facing outwards on his knee. I had a really bad headach so was trying to get some sleep so let him deal with the wakings. I feel it made things worse as he didn't want to be in arms or in cot. I couldn't keep up the settling that wasn't working due to the headach and luckily he managed to fall asleep with DH. Today with his naps, I only used PD. though actually, it wasn't really that. It was more like nap routine started 5 mins earlier, and after short cuddle/singing after his stories, I kissed him and said have a good sleep and put him down in cot and settled in there. Less than 10 mins later he was asleep. Afternoon nap, took more like 5 mins. Am so confused why at night it's so hard if he clearly wants this method as took less time than trying in arms.

In terms of his EASY, I think I have hit a wall in terms of where to go. Wondering whether to keep increasing A time or decrease daytime sleep. Hard call. I'll post on the EASY section and see what the people there have to say. I think we're nearly there with his routine. At home anyway!!!! Since at childminder she isn't able to keep to it. Big boooo!!! With any luck it won't take too long for us to work out something that works at home and at hers.

[Bex09]

I think it is probably a good idea to post on EASY hun as the ladies over there will have great advice for you. I do think that these longer NW may be down to UT due to short A times or too much DT sleep. I think really at this age 2 x 2 hrs is really what higher sleep needs babies are on. C never did more than 3 hr in the day at this point, 2 x 1.5 hrs. you will get great advice on this over on EASY though. If you want to post the link on here then we can follow you over there too.

[Dee_hnh]

So hard to tell what NWs are about, aren't they. UT is what I'm going for at the moment after the 8 hour stint after his childminder experience. I think he is tired from bad nights sleep so sleeping lots during the day. But then he's just in a cycle that will keep going until I help him break it. He was not a happy bunny when I woke him after an hour this afternoon, but managed his 3 hrs awake totally fine and settled him in his cot within 10 minutes or so. He managed to settled himself after a bad dream, but just woke up now (after 4hrs asleep). Was able to settle him in his cot and he is now asleep, 40mins later. With any luck these will get shorter. Although they tend to be shorter before midnight and and longer after 1am.

I'm going to post on the EASY forum now. Was about to when H decided to wake up. I'll pop the link on after. Thanks! Wouldn't have thought of that!

[Dee_hnh]

Ok, here is the link to the EASY post: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=226695.0

Argh. Just woke up after 20 minutes. May be teeth tonight, since he grabbed and chewed on my finger when trying ot fall asleep, and then just did that to his dad, and did it to me again. Gave him some paracetemal. Not that is seems to work for him, but who knows. Worth a shot.

[LouiseV]

Oh honey you just hang on in there. You are working so hard on this - you'll get there!
Us mums get very good at gritting our teeth and keeping on don't we?

Will follow on the EASy forum