I thought short naps meant they went down over tired?

[jennfl]

I've read several places that short naps usually mean the baby went down over tired, or was over stimulated.  But just here I've been seeing a lot of people suggesting longer A times to remedy a short nap.  I would LOVE for that to be the case, but I've always been afraid to keep him up too long and get him into an OT state.  Maybe that's why we always have short naps?  I do leave him in the crib, and he will put himself back to sleep after about 10 mins of talking or fussing.  That is until lately, where he's had a very hard time putting himself back to sleep.  He's 5 months old in two days.

[anna*]

It can be either, confusingly. If they're not tired enough, obviously they won't need or take a long nap. Overtired, they need the sleep but won't take it. FWIW, if your guy is putting himself back to sleep, youve probably got it about right!

[creations]

You might find this link useful
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0

If your A time is too short you will get an UT nap.  If you need to increase your A time I suggest going up in increments of around 10-15 mins every couple of days until you reach the guidance A time for age or until you get a good length nap.  You don't want to make a big A increase in one go, your LO is likely to get upset about it.

Like anna says if he is self soothing and going back to sleep that's great.  I got the impression though that he is finding it more and more difficult to do this lately so think an A increase may be needed.

Shout out if you need more help with it OK?

[jennfl]

Thank you for the support!  Here was our day today.  Not so bad. 

He woke pretty early at 5:30 am (maybe a sign that we need to cut the CN or shorten it?)
Talked until 6 am and slept on and off until 6:50

Put him down for 1st nap at 8:20(didn't know how to figure his awake time today), he talked for 5 min then asleep.  Woke at 28 mins, talked for 10 min zero fuss.  Slept for another 1.5hours!  Total nap was 2 hrs.

Kept him awake for just shy of 3 hours because he wasn't showing any tired signs.  He went down fast in 2-3 mins.  Here's the weird part.  I think at the 40 min mark he spit up and some came out of his nose (that Alimentum is notorious for this with him).  He was crying hard and I waited a minute and looked at the monitor, thought it was coming out of his nose so went in and picked him up(I never do this until 20 min usually).  I think it did come out of his nose.  I held him for a couple of minutes and he got calm.  I laid him back down and he cried pretty hard for about 7 mins and then went back to sleep until 3pm.  So the nap was an hour and a half with about 10 mins of wierdness in between.  I'm very happy with both naps.

Now I won't do the CN and will do an early BT of about 6:20.  He'll be awake about 3hrs 20 min by the time he's asleep, but I think he will be ok because of the two good naps.

I think I am beginning to agree with his short naps being because he is UT. I've been so paranoid to not get him OT but now I need to stretch A time out some.

You don't think I should stretch A time out for both naps?

[creations]

Hi there.
3hrs+ is a pretty long A time for a 5 month old.  What A time did he have before the increase?

The first nap waking at 2mins sounds like it could be an OT wake up, but luckily he went back off to sleep for a good length nap.  Like you said, it's hard to see really what the A time there was when it cam after an early wake up and some dosing on and off.

I'm not familiar with Alimentum so not able to comment on that.

I'm assuming that when you say you usually wait 20 minutes before going to him, you mean if he is quietly fussing or mantra crying, not crying hard?  A hard cry should always be responded to immediately.

It would be normal at this age for a LO to still have a CN, and for the A times to be shorter than 3hrs (more like 2hr 15) but all LOs are individuals and if you find this works without leading to OT then it might be the right solution for you and your LO. I would aim for a consistent A time through the day initially and then judge if any of them work better slightly longer or shorter.  My DS had a very long first A and shorter following A's because that suited his day and his levels of stimulation throughout the day.

If you'd like to post another EASY for today feel free.

[jennfl]

Thank you again for your replies.

Today, again, a weird day.  

I put him to bed for the night at 6:05 pm because of the last nap ending at a weird time and not having enough time for a CN.  He slept without a peep until 6:22am!  He has done this before when his A time is over 2.5 hours before bed (rarely is).  I'm wondering if the CN takes from his night sleep now.  With the CN he wakes around 5:30-5:45am a lot and will sometimes put himself back to sleep until 6:30, mostly not.

So, with him having almost 12.5 hours of sleep last night, so far our day has gone like this:

Wake up at 6:22am
Awake until 8:35 (alseep at this time, out in 2 mins with zero fuss)
Woke up from this nap with no interruption in between 50 minutes later at 9:25.  He talked in his crib for a few mins happily and we went in and got him up.

Next nap was at 11:39 (2hrs 15 mins awake). It took him 4 mins to settle in his crib with light fussing and one roll before he was out.
BUT, he only slept for 30 mins!  We left him in the crib and watched him talk to himself and play with his shirt and hands for 15 mins.  No fuss at all.  He rolled onto his back and then back to his belly and put his thumb in once or twice like he was going to go back to sleep, but just rolled onto his back instead and was talking.  Went in and got him up.  It's been an hour since he woke up and he's as happy as can be.

If his night sleep is so consolidated and long, could this be one reason for short naps?  Also, I am beginning to wonder if I should continue to try and extend the nap by leaving him in the crib to fuss or talk.

It's so frustrating when I try to make sure he's either not OT or UT.  I try and try and can't seem to get it right.  I read that it can take past 6 months for babies nap rhythms to mature.  What is your take on this?

At this point, I'm going to follow his signs until I put him down again.  Today he never got cranky, he just yawned a few times, but zero fuss.  Maybe we should wait for him to fuss?

Thanks again for your help.

We have let him cry at times for a couple of minutes, but when it turns into a hard cry, we will go in.  He mostly grunts off and on, and fusses so we've found that leaving him alone to try and settle is what works for him.  Believe me, we tried every other method before doing that.

[jennfl]

So, as for the rest of our day.  After his 2nd nap of 30 mins he was awake for 2hrs and 20 min and just started getting a bit cranky when I changed him before the nap.  I sang to him for a few mins like always, he was very calm, then laid him down.  He talked LOUD for 6 mins and was out.  No fussing or crying at all.

He just woke up from this nap after 45 mins.  He rolled and sucked his thumb for 10 mins with zero fuss and was quiet.  He was trying to go back to sleep.  He cried for 2-3 mins at the end and I went in and got him.  We have let him fuss longer but again, it's a weird time of day to extend this nap much longer as I'm worried it will again cause an early am wake up time if I do.

Ugh.  What could be going on?  Teeth?  Doesn't need anymore sleep because of his long night sleep?  Could he have been UT for this last nap?

[creations]

What A time did he have before the increase?

Sorry, I still don't know where you started with your A time.

It looks like the A times are a little inconsistent at the moment, one day 3hr+ and another day 2hr 15.
I suggest more consistency as it is pretty hard to work out if today's short naps are down to UT or OT hanging on from yesterday.  With a consistent A time your LO's body clock will adjust and he will become ready for a good nap at the appropriate A time, it is habit forming.

Although he had a long night sleep, today's naps look OT.  I would hold at the 2hr 15 for a day or two and see if he adjusts.
He could be starting to make the move towards dropping the CN which usually happens at 6 months.  This could be the beginning of it (and you might need to have some CN days and some without for a couple of weeks), he might be ready to drop the CN a little early.

[jennfl]

His A time before was right at 2 hours.  At times every now and then, it would be just a bit less and rarely a bit more.  We've been trying to keep him occupied and push him a bit more today.

I will try to do a more consistent A time and see what happens.   Thank you again.

[creations]

Looks like you might have some OT from taking the A up too far too quickly.
Around 2hrs 15 would be the guidance for this age.  And then working up to reach approx 2hr 30 as he reaches 6 months.

I'd try sticking at 2hr 15 and let him adjust to it.  If he is OT he will gradually catch up over the days.

See how it goes.

[creations]

I read that it can take past 6 months for babies nap rhythms to mature.  What is your take on this?

I just realised that I forgot to answer this

Yes, it seems pretty much accepted that LOs spend their first few months sorting out their night sleep and the next few sorting out their day sleep.  3 - 6 months is quite a common time for short naps although there are LOs on great routines who do get consistently long naps.  It was short naps during this period that brought me to BW when DS was around 4 months old.  His naps improved at 5.5 months but in hindsight I'm pretty sure I had his A times wrong (UT), I wish I knew then what I know now

[jennfl]

The crazy thing is, we have him on such a good solid routine.  It's been that way for a couple of months now, at least.  More or less, since he began STTN.  We've done the same bed time routine since he was 7 weeks old.  I've followed EASY for about that long too.  He's just always had this issue with nap transitions.  And I am always paranoid of getting him over tired.  Maybe I've made him a little whimpy when it comes to staying awake for long.  I'll do what you suggested and stay around 2.15 for A time and see what happens.

[creations]

You could try W2S to help him transition.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0

[jennfl]

I've considered trying this.  The method where I would gently have him stir before his sleep cycle.  Have you known anyone who has had luck with this?

What else could be the reason for habitual nap waking at 30mins?  If its's not UT or OT? 

What was it that helped your LO?

[creations]

If you read the link you'll see that there are two ways to W2S.  One is a gentle rousing to move LO into another sleep cycle, the other is to sooth through the transition.  I have soothed through the transition when needed.
When we dropped down to one nap for example and he was getting OT wake ups at 20 mins I made sure I was in his room prior to the 20 min mark, stayed in there for about 2 or 3 mins to sooth him through into deep sleep so he didn't fully wake up between light and deep sleep.
Yes it works for many LOs, not all.  It will have a great deal to do with what it is that is disrupting them.