Help with 6 month old's night wakings - Now 9 month old

[sarabande]

My 6th month old has been having a difficult time lately.  I'm trying to get him on a 4 hour easy, but am struggling.  We were doing well up until about a month ago, when he gave up his paci on his own.  Now, he is waking up to eat every 2-3 hours, when he was going 5-6 hours before.  I think this snacking over night is what is causing his problems during the day.  I've fed him every time he wakes up, becuase at that moment its easier.  However, I've reached my limit.  Tonight, I plan on using pu/pd to try to get him back on track.  Would the best strategy to start with is to get him to 4 hours between night feedings, and then try to stretch that out, or should I just pick certain feedings to skip?  He has a lovie, but not much of a prop.  He just got over a cold, so he had some rocking while sick.  Yesterday's easy starting with going to bed looked like this:

S - 7:30pm - Down for the night
E - 9:25 - NW1
E - 11:20 - NW2
E - 3:37 - NW3
E - 5:58 - NW4
A - 8:00 Wake up, activity
E - 8:50
S - 10:20 - 1.5 hr nap.
A - 11:50
E - 1:24
S - 2:30 - 1.5 hr
A - 3:45
E - 5:00 - Eat (
Tried to do a catnap in this time, but he he refused to go down.
7:30 - start bedtime routine
8:00 In bed for the night

Any advice is appreciated!

[ZacsMumme]

Sorry im a bit confused with your nap times...can you post just what times the naps were for 1.5hrs
ie
AM Nap 10-11.30
PM Nap 1.30-3 ?

I am wondering if he has 'ditched' the paci...for the feed those NW do seem prop related if not discomfort?

Any teeth coming? - Any other reason LO would be in discomfort? ...is he a refluxer? BF or Bottle?

[sarabande]

Sorry the formatting got messed up. I'm going to edit he original post.

The two naps were:
Am nap 10:30 - 12:00
Pm nap  2:30 - 4:00
Refused catnap.

I have been thinking that he's replaced his paci with me. He is ebf.

I don't think this is teething related. I've tried giving Tylenol before bedtime with no change. No reflux issues. He is ebf, usually straight from the tap. Last night he got a big bottle (6oz) before bed and slept longer than usual.

[sarabande]

Well last night was slightly better.  He went down at 7:30.  He made a few noises at 9:30 (3 hours since last eating) but went back to sleep without me doing anything.  DF at 10:30.  Woke up at 1:45.  Tried shush/patt and rocking to get him back to sleep but didn't work and he didn't escalate.  I ended up feeding him at 2:15 (3 hr 45 min since last feeding).  Woke again at 5:30 (3hr 15 min since last feeding)  I fed him just to try to protect the first feeding of the day.

One thing I did different was to limit the time he spent latched.  Before, I would leave him latched until he pulled off and feel asleep.  Last night, I as soon as I felt his sucking slow, I unlatched him and put him in his crib so he's not using me as a paci.  Hopefully, in time this will help. 

Does it seem I"m on the right track?  Any other suggestions?

[ZacsMumme]

I have been thinking that he's replaced his paci with me. He is ebf.

I am wondering this too

One thing I did different was to limit the time he spent latched.  Before, I would leave him latched until he pulled off and feel asleep.  Last night, I as soon as I felt his sucking slow, I unlatched him and put him in his crib so he's not using me as a paci.  Hopefully, in time this will help.

perfect This is what I was going to suggest for GW.
Hre are some hopefully helpful links for you
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=104192.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=2361.0

You mention he is 6 months old, are you planning on starting solids? - I would start with breakie

I would also try to gently push out your A times a touch to balance out your day for the first and second A. The A to BT is quite long and this can cause OT and more NW.

[sarabande]

I still need a little help.  The total number of night wakings have decreased over the last week.  Last night, he only fed twice!     However, getting him down for the night and getting him back to sleep is very difficult.  He cries and escalates to screaming for about 30 minutes before he falls asleep.  Shush/pat doesn't do anything, and pu/pd seems to make things worse.  I end up rocking him to sleep and patting his back.  We don't have this problem with naps.  Here is our last day, starting with bedtime.

8:00 - Alseep (crying and rocking for 30 minutes)
10:30 - NW1 - nursed and asleep.
10:50 - Awake again, screaming for 30 minutes.  It took a lot of rocking and patting to get him back to sleep
3:30 - nw2 - nursed and right back to sleep.
7:10 - E and A
9:30 - S, 2hr 15 min nap.
11:45 - E and A
2:05 - S, 2 hr and 5 min nap.
4:10 - E and A
6L40 - Start bedtime routine.
7:00 - Nurse.
7:30 - Finally fell asleep after 20 minutes of crying and rocking.

Are the difficulties due to him being overtired?  THere's not enough room in the evening for a catnap, but the last A time ends up too long.  I'm not sure what to do.  Also, if his problems are due to being overtired, will pu/pd work, or should I continue with the APOP?

Thanks!

[ZacsMumme]

I think he needs more A time hun, that should help with the NW and BT battles which I think may be UT ones.
I would aim for no less than 2.5hrs for his first A time which is just a teeny increase of 10mins to start with, then after such a long nap I would say you need another 2.5hrs min before the next nap. I would stick with a good 3hrs to BT as well and see how he goes. You will likely need to push closer to 3hrs A time as you are on 2 naps and possibly cap them both at 2hrs each to preserve your nights.

Is he on solids?

[sarabande]

Thanks!  I'll try extendingthe a times tomorrow and sees what happens.

He is on a little bit of solids. He refuses to take purees, so we're doing baby led weaning. He gets solids 3 times a day, but not a whole lot is making it down.

[sarabande]

Well, I'm back for help again.  We had a good week, but things are getting difficult again.  We had settled into days of 2.5 A time, and 3 naps (2hr, 1.5h, and 30 min).  He was going down easy for all sleep, and only 2 nw.  Then for various reasons, we missed a few catnaps and we're back to 4 nw and sometimes ew.  I've definately noticed that being overtired has an effect on his nights.  Is it ok to do APOP to get a catnap?  Once or twice last week, I would hold him for the whole catnap as he would wake as soon as I tried to lay him down.

We also have a few other things messing up the sleep right now.  He's teething, but tylenol/advil doesn't seem to help.  He's also trying to push up on his hands and knees.  Should I just go with the flow right now, and hope things improve when the tooth pops and the developmental issues stop?

Thanks for the help!

[ZacsMumme]

We always had to AP the last CN of the day...AP is fine

Should I just go with the flow right now, and hope things improve when the tooth pops and the developmental issues stop?

Yes to some extent there is nothing else you can do when they are going through all that. HUGS its a tough age!

[sarabande]

Well, I'm still struggling.  Allen is 8 months old now, and still waking at least 3 times every night.  It's gotten to the point that I'm ready to bite the bullet, and do pu/pd to try to get him to sttn.  However, in two weeks, we'll be spending the week at the in-laws.  Is there any point in trying anything before our week away, or should I just wait?

He's down to two naps most days, or about 2 hours each.  He gets about 2hr 45 min of A time, 4 nursing sessions during the day, and solids 3 times (doing baby led weaning).

[ZacsMumme]

If he is 8 months old I'm wondering if he is getting too much day sleep, and/or not enough A time. I would try increasing those As to at least 3 hrs and see if it helps your nights, and/or capping 1 nap at 1.5hrs.

I wouldn't bother ST until your holiday is over...its likely his trip will put his routine out of whack.

What times are the NW now, how are you settling him and can you post your EAsY?

Hugs x

[sarabande]

I'm finally ready to tackle the nw's.  Pu/pd worked in 3 days to get him to fall asleep on his own for naps and at the beginning of the night.  I'm ready to apply it to nw's.  He's pretty consistently waking up 3 times on an average night.  Occasionally he's only up twice, on very bad nights even more.  On an average night, he's up between 10:00 and 11:00, 1:00 and 2:00, and finally 4:00 and 5:00.  He's usually up for the day between 6:00 and 7:00.  Overnight, I've always just nursed him back to sleep because it's easier.  I know he's not hungry all those times, because he can easily go 4.5 to 5 hours between nursing during the day. 

Last night, he nursed at 7:05 and was asleep at 7:25.  He woke up at 9:45.  I did pu/pd for 20 minutes and he fell asleep.  Five minutes later, he was up again.  Five more minutes of pu/pd and he's asleep again.  Once again, 5 minutes later he's crying.  At this point I gave in and nursed him, and nursed at wake ups at 12:20, 3:00, and then he was up for the day at 5:30.

I'm just not sure how to proceed at this point.  IF he's used to nursing 3 times overnight, is it reasonable to expect him to go straight to no nursing?  Or should I try to eliminate one nursing session at a time, and which one first?  If he continues to wake up 5 minutes after going to sleep after pu/pd, how long do I continue with that pattern - all night? 

I'm finally ready to tackle the nw beast, just not sure what the best way is.  Thanks for the advice.

[sarabande]

Here is yesterday's EASY.  The other post was getting long.   

E,A - 7:00 - nurse, scrambled eggs, and fruit
S - 10:05 - Nap 1 hr, 25 min.
E, A - 11:30 - nurse, vegetables, noodles, meatball
S - 2:30 - Nap 1 hr, 50 min.
E,A - 4:30 Nurse
E - 5:30 - Rice, black eyed peas, pork
E - 7:05 - Nurse
S - 7:30 -Asleep for the night.

Most days are pretty similar to this.

[ZacsMumme]

Overnight, I've always just nursed him back to sleep because it's easier.

Okay so, based on the times he is waking I would say he is waking in the night and needs a BF to get back to sleep. It has become a prop.
BUT that is okay At least you know what you need to tackle right?

Once again, 5 minutes later he's crying.  At this point I gave in and nursed him, and nursed at wake ups at 12:20, 3:00, and then he was up for the day at 5:30.

to teach him how to resettle himself you will need to 'not' give in and feed. Otherwise what happens is he learns (not to his own fault) to hold out for a BF and the process takes a lot longer.

Because he is nursing 3 times a night, and is over 8 months I would guess he doesnt need it. But he is used to the calories at night. I would only BF 1 in the night and decide what time that will not be before ie I wont BF unless Lo wakes after midnight. And once he is fed you dont feed again till 5/6am or WU.

Your routine looks good You may find once he is sleeping better at night he needs a lottle less day sleep but I wouldnt worry about that yet

What do you think? Oh and as far as settling without a BF its up to you and/or DH how you do it.
If PU/PD is working then stick with it. Maybe get DH to do it if you can as then your breast isnt there KWIM? If you feel he is getting too wound up then you can just comfort any way you like but just dont feed. Once that prop is broken I suspect you will find weaning anything else picked up in the process ie rocking, patting very easy