One NF and then habitual night waking?

[amyonkman]

Im wondering what to do with my DS.  He is five months, and has not been doing well at night anymore.  Im sure it's not a growth spurt.  he does 4 hour feedings during the day, about 6oz each feeding, with some solids after two feedings, he goes to bed around 8 and then wakes around 11 or so, i usually feed him then, and he eats 6oz but he's eating at longer stretches during the day so I feel he should be able to go longer.  But i put him back down after that feeding and he wakes like 2 1/2 sometimes three hours after that feedings, and i try to get him back to sleep, i tried for an hour last night, with no luck, finally fed, he ate 4oz, didnt even seem that interested, and finally put him back to bed at 4, and he slept til 8!  So I dont know how to handle this second waking, if he's not really interested or taking a full feeding, but won't go back to sleep on his own, with my rubbing his back and tryin to calm him down.  Is he maybe not getting enough during the day, or sleeping too much during the day to maybe be part of the problem?  he naps a total of 4 hours, 2 hour nap, 1 1/2 and 1/2 hour CN...should i take out his CN and put him to bed earlier maybe?  Help!  Not getting more than 2 1/2 3 hour stretch of sleep and it is starting to wear on me...he used to be doing better than this.  His dr thinks it's habitual, but wouldnt offer any advice on what to do other than read books...any advice?!

[amyonkman]

Also...if he does a 2nd NF, or sometimes even with no 2nd NF he still really will only eat 3/4 oz for his first feed in the morning, so I feel he truly is not hungry for this second time he is waking at night, I just dont know if I should maybe try to get him to go longer when he wakes the first time at night, so he is eating later, and then hopefully will sleep longer, I do feel he needs one NF but not two, since he;s not eating much and then not eating much in the morning..he is also FF if that makes a difference.

[amyonkman]

Figured I should add his EASY:
8 am wake, 4 oz
10 am nap, 1 1/2 or 2
12pm bottle 6 oz
1pm some solids
2pm nap 1 1/2 2 hours, depending on morning nap
4 pm bottle 6 oz
5 pm solids
5:30 CN til 6
7pm bath, then bottle, in bed just before 8 normally.   This can all vary by an hour or half an hour, depending on how the night goes and when he wakes.  If he has two NF he is usually up at eight but if i get him to go without a second NF he is up by 7/7:30.   he is sometime starting to stretch his A times to three hours...should I maybe go for three hours and then cut his CN and put him to bed around 7:30???

[ZacsMumme]

It does sound like an habitual wake if usually 2.5-3 hrs after the 11pm feed. when he wake is he crying for you to go in or just grizzling, resettling or talking to himself?

If you are not going to feed you will have to stick with it, if you cave and feed after 1 hr then your LO will start to think that he needs to fuss that long to get a feed. Basically, if you decide not to feed the first night may be tough, but if you do anything other than feed he will eventually go to sleep ie cuddle,shh/patt, sing. The next night will be easier.

Alternatively you could try w2S one hour before the habitual wake to try to break the habit.
What do you think.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=213387.0
Your day looks good, it could be your LO is ready to drop the CN though 5 months is pretty early to do so you could just try a touch more A time between naps first. 

[amyonkman]

Thanks for your advice! When he wakes he sometimes just starts out talking a little, but sometimes he is just crying right away, but his eyes are always closed, but its not a mantra cry really either.  I do look into the w2s, but it's not always consistently at the same time. I actually had a feeling in the back of my mind that he may be over tired too...so last night, he didnt do that great for his CN so I put him to bed at 7:30 instead of eight, since he was rubbing his eyes and kinda crabby, he then woke at 11, a lot of times he wiggles himself into the corner of the crib and then gets mad, so I got him all situated rubbed his back for a bit, and then he fell back asleep about a minute or two after i left him, and then he woke again at twelve thirty, so I fed him, and he slept til about quarter after seven!  So do you think being OT could have been part of the culprit?  I'll see how tonight goes, with putting him down earlier if he's tired earlier again, and then still stick to the one NF...you are right...I am having a hard time sticking to it, I get so tired, and think it's so much easier to just feed him cause I know he'll go back to sleep, but I know in the long run it's worse cause he'll keep getting up then!  But Ill have to see if he sleeps better with the earlier bedtime or keeps waking around the same time, then I'll have to give the w2s a try.  i just didnt know how long I should let him cry, til he falls asleep I guess then right?  If its for the second NF anyway. 

[ZacsMumme]

It cold be OT by BT the A between the CN and BT is quite long. If you want to increase A times I would do it between naps. it is hard at night when you are tired. Maybe work on cutting the feed when you feel ready and have support. Dont leave him to cry Hun, but if he isn't crying for you and is just trying to settle then give him a chance to resettle on his own.

[amyonkman]

O no, I dont leave him, I go in there to try to settle him if he's not settling on his own, with patting his back and things, but thats why i wasn't sure if he was still crying for an hour with me doing that, if i should just feed him, you know?  but if its habitual then i probably just need to get through a few nights of back rubbing/ssh/patting..to get him to stop doing that right?

[amyonkman]

ok, another question.  last night my DS has 8 oz at 7 and was in bed by 7:30. asleep by 7:45, up at 10:30...hunger, or habitual?  i tried to get him to go longer...tried for hour and fifteen min and he was getting more upset, so then i fed him at about quarter to 12, he slept then til quarter to 7 this morning.  so i dont know if its better to get him to go longe before his feeding cause first i feel he shouldnt really be hungry that soon after 8 oz and then if he eats that early i feel like it's longer for him to go the rest of the night and will prob wake up again.  and when i fed him last night he ate 4oz and was falling asleep so he didn't even take a full feeding.

[ZacsMumme]

Can you repost your easy please Hun and I'll try to get some bottle eyes on this. At 5 months I think it's fine to feed at night at least 1ce. Your LO should be able to go at least as long at night as he does during the day.

[*Becky*]

Hi there,
At this age I would expect one NF. DS had a NF until 7 months which was a DF at about 10.30pm.
If he is having 4 bottles plus a NF that 'should' be enough. Have you tried putting an extra ounce in the bottles so more like 7oz? You also mention he has 2 solid meals - is that right? That is quite a bit for a 5 month old - do you think tummy issues are having anything to do with the NWings?

If it were me I would def give him 1 NF but try to settle him for other wakings. I would also try and wait 4 hours from bedtime if you can as you know he can do this in the day. I would imagine he was hungry quite early in the night because he did not take much of his bedtime feed..if yu post your routine from that day we can take a look.

[amyonkman]

well i actually got him to bed last night at about 7:15 cause he was tired and crabby, he slept twelve hours with no NF and no NW!!  so i am starting to think it was an OT thing now.. i think ill stick with the earlier bedtime and see if things keep going well for now!  thanks for all the help, i will check back in!

[*Becky*]

great news

[amyonkman]

He's done two twelve hour nights so far with his earlier bedtime..its amazing!!  Im wondering though, if he does start to wake again, would you think he doesnt need a NF anymore, since he's proving now he can go at least twelve hours?

[ZacsMumme]

I think you are right in that he probably doesnt need a NF, but I wouldnt write it off completely if he wakes at say 4am and seems hungry. I only say that because they grow in bursts at this age and you may find that these long nights are in part catch up on OT. I do think it proves that he certainly doesnt need more than 1 NF though

[amyonkman]

ok, sounds good, thank you!  i'm hoping we're through the worst of it and have things figured out a little here now!