How long for wind down time?

[bluebell568]

Hi, I had some great advice from Kara the other day which has got our feeding routine in order. Now for the napping!

If I calculate the A time to work out when the nap should begin, how much earlier should I start our wind down routine? Is 15 minutes reasonable or should I expect it to take longer? I was intending to take dd up to the nursery, partly draw the curtains, sit in the rocking chair to look at a book, then draw the curtains completely, pop her in her sleeping bag and turn on some soft music. What do I do then? Do I put her in her cot and hope for the best? Or should we start with rocking her almost to sleep (she currently only sleeps if rocked or in pram or car) and then putting her down a little awake? Really want to do it properly tomorrow and I know I will get to the turning on the music part and panic about what to do next.

Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

[RebekahDSC]

Good for you planning a naptime routine!  I found a naptime routine to be one of the most amazingly helpful aspects of setting up my DD's routine for the day.  The Baby Whisperer herself suggests a 20 minute wind down.  However, I've found that it really depends on your baby.  My DD likes a quick wind down (walk around the house for 2 minutes, then just 10 minutes in the room).  Others may take longer.  We do try to do fairly quiet activities for the last hour or so before naptime (usually playing with toys while I do housework) but the actual wind down isn't super long.

If she is used to you rocking her to sleep, you might want to get her close for the first few days and gradually work up to putting her in the crib drowsy but truly awake.  I also found it helps to have a key sleep phrase you say right after putting her in the crib.  Once she gets used to the naptime routine meaning it's time to go to sleep, that will be a powerful sleep cue for her.  Good luck!

[creations]

Hi, great advice from Rebekah there.

As pp said Tracy suggested a 20 min wind down, it gives you a place to start but the real thing is to learn what your LO likes.  My own DS hated a long wind down and would scream blue murder if I took him to the bedroom more than 2 mins before sleep.  For us it was 'I think you're tired now, do you want to go for a nap' and he'd look like he did.  I picked him up, walked up the stairs, straight to the bedroom, put him in his sleeping bag and stood cuddling him (and swaying/rocking) whilst I sang a song (limited to 3 songs to pick from, 1 of these was the most used and most powerful as I had sung it daily when I was pregnant too!).  Then I said 'I'm going to put you down now so you can sleep properly' and popped him in his cot, drowsy but awake.

 

I also found it helps to have a key sleep phrase you say right after putting her in the crib

Personally I'd introduce the key phrase before putting in the cot and repeat it in the cot.  It can be repeated like a mantra too as hearing your voice can be very soothing.  This is very useful for LOs who no longer like being shushed.

Or should we start with rocking her almost to sleep (she currently only sleeps if rocked or in pram or car) and then putting her down a little awake?

I would rock her to the point of very drowsy, using the key phrase to sooth (something like 'It's sleepy time now').  In one of the BW books Tracy suggests telling baby that you are going to put her down now, this way you keep communicating what is coming, I've always done this and have also always told DS that I am leaving the room but that I will come back if he needs me.

When you put her in the cot I would keep my hands on her (so you might want to re-think the music or when you turn it on) so she still feels your presence.  Be quite firm with your hands, she is learning how to fall to sleep on a mattress and this is a new experience.  I would also slightly rock her, a firm hand moving slightly will give her a little rock on the mattress.  Tracy suggested shush/patting in the cot but I found it very difficult to find a place to pat DS so I held my hand on the nappy area and rocked/jiggled a bit.  It's kind of like the motion of the car!  As your LO is not used to going to sleep in the cot I'd say at first keep on with this firm hand and the slight rocking until she reaches sleep, and don't remove your hand suddenly or she'll jolt awake.  The key thing is that over time you reduce reduce reduce, less jiggling, for less time, then a still hand, then a lighter touch, always doing as little as necessary.
If she gets very upset I would pick up and calm her right down and not try to put her back in until she is drowsy again.

Like I said, I always told DS when I was leaving the room.  It's your choice.  I've never liked the idea of sneaking off on him.  I say something like, 'have a lovely sleep, call if you need me' and I used to say this even if he had already fallen asleep.

I think everyone has their own methods, you'll find yours too.  Try to view it as something you and LO are learning together, she is learning how to fall to sleep independently and you are learning how to best help her do that

[bluebell568]

Thank you so much for your advice. I will introduce a key phrase and we can definitely use a song as this is what I did when I worked on her bedtime routine. I realise now that in my original post I put that she "currently only sleeps if she's rocked..." this actually only applies to falling asleep for naps. At bedtime I am able to put her in her cot drowsy but awake and she will settle herself. I think we follow the bedtime routine so rconsistently that she knows exactly what to expect. Hopefully if we can be as consistent with the nap routine she will quickly get the idea that it is time to sleep then too. 

Thanks once again. I'm sure I'll be back tomorrow with some more questions.

[creations]

At bedtime I am able to put her in her cot drowsy but awake and she will settle herself.

Hey that's great

The naps will be a little different because she is in a different habit for them but it shouldn't be so difficult to change.  I would definitely go for a similar wind down to BT (obviously not including a bath!) or try to include aspect of it if you can.  Anything that will cue her to sleepy time and remind her that it is perfectly ok to fall to sleep without you.

I'm sure you'll do great! x

[bluebell568]

Update - Hannah is asleep in her cot!

I took her up 20 minutes before her nap was due to begin. Popped her in her sleeping bag, drew the curtains, turned on the bedtime lamp and music and sat in the rocking chair to look at 2 books. Then I rocked her to sleep (she fell asleep exactly 20 minutes after going upstairs!!) I put her in her cot. She slept for exactly 30 minutes (as I expected her to) but for the first time I was able to rock her back to sleep fairly easily. It is 10 minutes since she fell asleep for the second time so we will see what happens at the half hour mark. Very pleased with how it is going so far. Thanks again for the advice.

[creations]

This sounds like a good start, she was calm in the bedroom and settled well.
Next, to get her in the cot before she is asleep
It sounds to me like you won't have much difficulty.

Out of interest when you extended at the 30min mark did you pick up to rock back to sleep or keep her in the cot to rock her body on the mattress?

[bluebell568]

When she woke after 30 minutes I tried to settle her but then picked her up to rock her back to sleep. Over the next half an hour she woke up a few times and I just settled her by stroking her tummy and shushing her. Then she slept for another half an hour without waking. So she was in her cot for 90 minutes and had 2 definate half hour sleeps with half an hour of on/off sleeping in between. This is the most she has ever done in her cot so feel it is a good start. Tomorrow my aim is to repeat the wind down routine as consistently as possible to see if we can get 2 naps in her cot (plus cat nap in pram when we walk dogs). Then we can concentrate on extending the naps.

[creations]

Sounds great!
Progress is such a motivation.  Don't forget that things can appear to go a little backwards too during this process so try not to be disheartened and remember the positives. xx

[bluebell568]

Well it is nearly a week since I posted this question and things are going really well. I am much more confident with our EASY routine now and each time dd needs a nap I can take her up to the nursery and within 10 or 15 minutes she is asleep in her cot. I am currently still rocking her to sleep before putting her in her cot as the few times I have tried to put her in drowsy but awake she has protested but I am so pleased that she is responding to the routine and I will begin to work on putting her down awake.

She still only sleeps for 30 minutes at a time. She is also waking for a feed at about 5am and then going back to sleep so is getting up later than before.
Our EASY the last few days has been

8am  Wakes up and breast feed
9am  Solids (baby led weaning so mainly playing with food, not a lot gets ingested)
10.30am  Sleep for 30 minutes

12pm Breastfeed
12:45pm Lunch

1:30 Sleep for 30 minutes

3pm Breastfeed
4:30 Sleep for 30 minutes

5:30 Dinner

6:15/6:30 Bedtime routine including breast feed

7:30 Asleep

One night waking sometime around 4 or 5 o'clock seems very wide awake and chatting to teddy before getting upset and calling for us! Has breastfeed and goes back to sleep.

Can anyone suggest why she only naps for 30 minutes? She usually seems happy when she wakes up (once we go to her) and is usually happy until the next nap.

Thanks for all the advice i've already received.

[creations]

Well it is nearly a week since I posted this question and things are going really well. I am much more confident with our EASY routine now and each time dd needs a nap I can take her up to the nursery and within 10 or 15 minutes she is asleep in her cot.

This is great progress.

The waking at 30 min might be due to the rocking prop.  When she stirs slightly for a transition she may become aware that she is no longer being rocked and she needs it to get back to sleep.
I think you have a good plan to now work towards getting her in drowsy but awake.
How old is your LO now?

[bluebell568]

She's 6 months and 2 weeks.

When we go for a walk in the pram she still sleeps for exactly 30 minutes even though when she stirs we are still walking so the pram is still moving like it was when she fell asleep. I've tried pulling the hood low down so when she opens her eyes there is nothing to see, I don't talk to her etc but she just lies with her eyes open and doesn't go back to sleep???

At the moment her night time sleep is the worst it has been. And with only a 20 minute nap this morning, 15 minutes at lunchtime after a feed and 30 minutes in the pram this afternoon I'm sure she must be overtired. I know I am exhausted!

I've started trying to get away from rocking to sleep by just holding her and reducing my movement. She used to have reflux so always preferred an upright position rather than lying down. I guess I'm reluctant to try putting her down awake as I'm worried we'll end up with no nap (and even a 20 minute nap is better than nothing).

Can I ask your opinion on our EASY routine in the evening. Tonight it was 1 hour from when we had dinner to when she had her breastfeed but because eating solids is a slow process at the moment it seemed like we were going staight from solids to breast feed and I'm worried this will cause her to not take in much milk and might be contributing to her waking in the night.

Today's EASY was

8am awake (but not hungry as was fed at 5:30am)
9am breastfeed
10am solids
10.45am nap (20 minutes)
12pm breastfeed (didn't intend to feed yet but was very distressed. Couldn't work out if she was tired (because of very short nap, or hungry, or in pain - teeth??. Tried teething gel and tried to do naptime routine to get to sleep but became even more distressed so fed her and she calmed and fell asleep for 15 minutes or so)

1pm solids
4pm breastfeed
5pm Catnap in pram (30 minutes)
6pm solids
7pm breastfeed
7:30pm asleep

Any suggestions. I'm so tired at the moment I'm struggling to think clearly so I'm sorry if I am doing something obvious wrong. Thanks for all the help.

[creations]

Hi there
Big ((hugs)) I'm so sorry to hear you're having a difficult time at the moment.

It sounds like there might be some pain (reflux? teething?) if she doesn't re-settle when you try to help her after the 20 min WU.  I see from your recent EASY and your previous one that you've increased the A time from 2hr 30 to 2hr 45 and this 'might' be too quick for her.  Her previous 30 min naps could have been due to OT so moving up to 2hr 45 may have added to this.  Either way she is unlikely to handle a full A after such a short nap so would be getting OT.

If it was me I'd
- look into a flare up of the reflux (she may need meds, you may need to look at what solids you are giving and avoid anything acidic)
- medicate for possible teething pain prior to naps
- reduce the A to 2hr 30 max so she can catch up on some sleep (if you get 40/45 min naps or protesting at nap time that's a sign she can move up the A)
- reduce the A to 2hr 15 max after a 20 min nap to try to avoid any further OT
- be in her room prior to the 20min wake up and the second she stirs place my hand on her and rub/rock whilst she is still in the cot.  You could creep in at around 15 min mark and position yourself so your hand is very close to her and you are ready to help her transition before she fully wakes and without picking up which will disturb her.  I would continue for several minutes until she is fully asleep then gradually reduce the rub/rock and lessen the weight of your hand on her before releasing (sudden movement might jolt her awake), then stay a further few mins to check she is staying asleep.

I would also, personally, move the soothing into the cot as mentioned in reply 2.  It kind of simulates the movement of the pram and is closer to how she is accustomed to falling to sleep rather than standing still.  I know it is scary for you, but your day naps and nights are about as bad as they can get anyway so in a way you may as well come out of this difficult time with something positive.  There's no harm in rocking to get her drowsy (so drowsy she can't resist sleep when you put her down) then continue in the cot...but it's only a suggestion.
The No Cry Sleep solution compliments the BW methods, there's some info here which you might feel you can adapt to help move her to falling asleep in the cot.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0

I would also call in back up if you can.  Ask a friend or family member if they would mind playing with her during her A time whilst you get a break, then you will have more energy to tackle the nap.

Regarding solids, introducing solids often disrupts sleep in the early days (sorry not sure when you started but will take it as recently).  There can be sleep disruption from digesting (gas maybe) and I also think that it is a developmental change for them too, just like learning to sit and crawl, and all developmental stages can disrupt sleep, all those new flavours and textures must be very exciting!  Solids do not sustain the way milk does so you may also find there are extra feeds needed (both day and night).  My DS went from 4 feeds per day plus DF to about 8 bottles (he needed more milk after solids even though he had a milk feed an hour earlier) and night waking for milk which he hadn't done in many months.  It's a phase until they settle into the new foods.  I moved the last solids meal to 5.15pm so there was a good length of time between that and the BT milk so he could get a good milk feed to help through he night, it also gives longer for the solids to digest and gas to move out before laying down for the night.  My DS has silent reflux so I avoided all citrus fruits, very ripe pears, yoghurt and anything else acidic.   Offer water with solids or your LO might need additional breast feeds due to thirst rather than hunger, and watch out for constipation.  Poops are going to change, that's normal, but if LO starts to get backed up you can step in with some natural laxative solids foods to ease it before it gets too bad.
There is a good laxative food thread (sticky) on the solids board worth reading when you are more rested.

Do feel free to start a thread on the props board if you would like some separate help with the rocking to sleep prop, or I could ask someone to pop in here if you like?

I hope some of this might help.
You will get through this, I know it seems long and hard right now. xx

[bluebell568]

Hi, thank you so much for taking the time to write such a detailed reply with so much advice. Today didn't start very well I'm afraid. Hannah woke at 11.20 last night and it was almost 1am when I got to bed. Then she was awake and chatty at 6.15 I decided to start her day then in order to try and get a good routine going so the first part of our day was

6.15 awake
6.30 milk
7.30 solids
8.30 wind down
8.45 asleep (awake time 2.5 hours)

She settled really well and but only slept for 10 minutes! I couldn't get her to settle again. I was so upset so my dh tried to help but when he went in he said she didn't seem tired at all so he took her downstairs and put her on her playmat in the office while he worked. She was quite happy playing.

At 10.30 I gave her her next breastfeed and as soon as she started feeding I could tell she was going to doze off on the breast to make up for her lack of nap so I took her upstairs and fed her in the nursery and as soon as I felt her sucking become comfort rather than feeding I unlatched her and put her in her cot. She protested a little but found her thumb and went to sleep for 40 minutes.

So so far we have

8.45 sleep (10 min)
8.55-9.20 trying to resettle
9.20 playing
10.30 feed
10.50 sleep (40 mins). Awake time since 10 min nap almost 2hrs

DH the took over for the afternoon (few!) She fed at 2.45 and had a nap on him from 4 till 4.30
I gave her some solids at 5.30 ish and bath and feed at 6.30

I made sure she was awake when I put her in her cot so fingers crossed!

I hadn't really thought about certain solids having an effect on her stomach but when I have been up in the night with her I have noticed she has had a lot of wind so she may be in discomfort. I'll have to look into avoiding things like you mention.

I've read the no cry sleep solution and ihave a copy of the no cry nap solution. The link you gave me to the Gentle removal plan looks really useful i'll try to read it more thoroughly tomorrow.

Thanks again for all your help. I'm sure we'll get there soon!

[creations]

Oh dear, hugs to you, you're having a hard time of it atm!

I think you did the right thing with de-latching and getting her down for a nap.  It sounds like OT, jolting awake at 10 mins.  You could try staying with her the whole nap, hard work, keep your hands on her in the cot for much of the nap, very hard work, but it could help get her through to a decent sleep.
I found once when DS was having a hard time I went to sleep in the same room as him at nap time and he slept 2 hrs instead of 40 mins!  I was so exhausted at the time I just had to lie down but later I thought he must have known I was there and it must have relaxed him in his sleep.