18mo taking 45mins-1hr to settle at BT-please help

[clairebear79]

(((hugs))).  Do you want to post your EASY for the last couple of days & maybe we can take a look?

If its any consolation we've had a really awful couple of days too.  We've been capping the nap at 1.5hrs but he's been taking so long to settle at BT so we first tried shortening his A time to BT (& he chatted for even longer) so then we tried increasing it, day 1 went great with a 12hr night but then we got an EW & last night he took ages to settle again so he ended up doing 6hrs A on both sides of his nap, then we got NW's last night, so today I actually let him take a longer nap & put him to bed just 15mins later than usual & he settled really well.  I think he'd gotten all OT. 

Having said that, I think the root cause of the problem in our routine is that he needs a longer morning A time of 6hrs (so nap starting at 1pm), but an even shorter nap of 1hr - 1h 15, followed by a much shorter A time to BT in order to keep his day at 12hrs max.  I'm just not sure if I'm ready to trim his nap any shorter yet eek!  So I'm contemplating letting him keep his longer nap but giving him a slightly later BT instead.  Bit undecided.

[*foxy*]

Hi

I don't know. We were doing really well with later WU's and then she started waking earlier and earlier. The problem is always BT. We try so hard to make sure she's not UT or OT but she's so unpredictable. So we ended up with a couple of 13.5 hour days even though we tried SO hard to avoid them and then of course we got NW's and EW's. The last couple of BT's I've ended up needing to have my hand on her back otherwise she gets really frustrated and starts head butting the cot sides and hurting herself. Today was a little better with a 6.20am WU but then she only a 1 hour nap and I have no idea why. BT was 7.30 but I was very disappointed because I had to help her.

Our easy the last few days looks like this:

Friday: wake 6am (no NW)
Nap 12-1.30 (woke herself)
BT 7.30 it was the best BT that we've had for months

Saturday: wake 5.40am (no NW)
Nap 12-1.20 (woke herself)
BT 7.10 it was awful and she needed help

Today: wake 6.20 (NW 3am, took about 30mins to settle)
Nap 12.20-1.20 (woke herself)
BT 7.10 awful again and needed help

I'm writing down each day to see if any of it starts to make sense! It looks like her days are too long? But if we put her to bed earlier she just plays and chats then gets frustrated and starts crying.

[Bex09]

Has your DD always been low sleep needs hun or not? I really do think that all of this is brought about by OT. My DD has trouble settling down to sleep when she is OT or UT just to confuse us! Your DD surely can't be UT after a 6 hr A time? What does your Mummy instinct tell you though hun? You know her best.

[*foxy*]

We've always had problems with sleep, when we were on 2 naps it was a nightmare. I think she is definitely low sleep needs, my dp is the same!

I don't know what my mummy instinct is telling me, is it possible not to have one? Is that part of the reason that we're in this mess?! I'm sure her days are too long. I think 11 hour nights and 13 hour days is more what we should be aiming for.

Last night was actually really good!
BT 7.10 (that was pretty awful but we wont count that bit!)
No NW's!
She squeaked at 5.45am my heart sank but then there was nothing until 6.30am!

So my plan is nap 12.30 and will see how long she sleeps for but no more than 1.5 hours. BT 7.15/7.30
How does that sound?

[Bex09]

Oh hunnie, you will have a Mummy instinct, but these LOs just like to confuse us by changing the rules now and again. Trying to work them out can be a nightmare. It is certainly nothing at all that you have done or haven't done.

Your plan sounds good and I would imagne then that if your DD is low sleep needs that she does need those long A times. Just a point to think about is that ATM my DD has been having some bad nights with teething. The day after a bad night she needs a good 2 hr nap and shorter A times to aviod OT. After a good night we can lengthen the A times again and cap the nap at 1.5 hrs no problem. Could it be that your DD needs a longer nap and shorter A time after a shorter night and a shorter nap after a better night? Bit of a balancing act I know, but that is how it goes for us.

[clairebear79]

Could it be that your DD needs a longer nap and shorter A time after a shorter night and a shorter nap after a better night? Bit of a balancing act I know, but that is how it goes for us.

Seems to be how we are going at the moment too.  After a long night he is UT, but after a short night he needs the extra sleep.  I suppose its a bit of an UT/OT loop.

I know BT was a battle yesterday but she went down earlier, and slept really well, so perhaps that shows that with the longer A in the morning she needs an earlier bedtime?  I am in this exact same predicament & a few people have said that if we're doing 6hrs A in the AM then we need to be doing more like 4.5/4.75hrs in the PM.  I tried to put him down at 4.75hrs & he faffed about for over 30mins so I thought he wasn't tired enough, but perhaps he was already OT by that point.  We also get the same messing around whether OT or UT so its so hard to tell.  The only way I can usually tell is by his behaviour the next day.  If he wakes moaning & has lots of tantrums, OT, if he wakes happy & raring to go, UT.

I think the difficulty with the earlier BT is that then you get trapped in a cycle of early wake, early nap, early bed.  You might well need to push that nap later to start at 1pm so you can achieve a 7pm BT without her being OT.  That said, she might even need the nap shortening more in order to pull a consistently longer night.

We had a much better night last night after allowing a longer nap yesterday, & have done same today, with the hopes we'll beat the OT.  I'm a little worried that with a few days of longer naps he'll end up UT at BT again & we'll get EW.  In which case I think my plan of attack is to first do the 1.5hr nap with the shorter A time to BT.  And if that doesn't work I'm going to cap the nap further so we're doing something like:

Up: ? hopefully 7am
Nap: 1-2/2.15
BT: 7pm

Hope this gives you a few ideas to chew over.

xx

[*foxy*]

Hi

Thankyou for your replies, it all makes sense.

She had a 1.25 nap from 12.30-1.45. That was with a 6.30am WU.

BT was another nightmare, I stayed with her but let her cry quite a lot and Shh'd her. I'm just so so fed up of the battle. She finally fell asleep at 7.30. I guess she was a bit UT?

[clairebear79]

Oh gosh hun I really don't know.

What time did you put her down in bed tonight & how long did she take to go to sleep tonight?

Have you considered trying to allow an earlier but longer nap for a day just to see if its OT?  I suppose if she keeps on capping them herself you're going to struggle with that though eh?

I am wondering if you might be better trying to shorten up her day a bit, either by pulling BT earlier, or by pushing the nap later towards 1pm (gradually 15mins/week as before) so that you shorten the A time to BT & force a later WU.  What do you think?

[*foxy*]

Hi

We started with milk and stories at 6.30, I put her in her cot at around 6.45 so that was a 5 hour A time to bed. Yesterday was 5 hour 40mins and although it still wasn't good it wasn't as bad as tonight and she STTN with a good WU time

We try to get her to catch up with a longer nap but she hasn't even been napping for 1.5 hours its been closer to 1-1.25. If we try early BT she just plays.

Today she woke slightly later (6.30 rather than 6.20) and had no NW's and had a slightly longer nap than yesterday (1.25 hours rather than just an hour) so I that's why I thought she might be UT at BT and took an even longer time to settle.

I'll see how tonight goes and decide on what to do tomorrow. I just think she's low sleep needs so needs long A times, that's the pattern that seems to be emerging. But she always surprises us so maybe I'm wrong!

[clairebear79]

Could be hun.  I think if you think she is low sleep needs, then I would be aiming more for that nap to be 1-2/2.15pm with a 7pm BT.  And hope this gets you the consistently longer night.  I know there are a few folks on here who will tell you their LO's were doing a really short nap by this age or had dropped the nap altogether.

We are back to 2hr naps the last couple of days.  DS has gotten really OT with all the nap capping & he seems to be a bit out of sorts so I'm hoping he'll get caught back up.  Once his nights start to shorten again I think we'll be working towards that later shorter nap.

xx

[*foxy*]

Ok thankyou. Wow, thats scary to think some LO's have completely dropped their nap by this age! If we get a later WU then I'll start pushing her nap back and hope we get a longer night. I hope your LO gets caught up soon.

 She woke at 5.40am today so I'm not sure what I'm going to do! This is the problem, I get the adjusting wrong when she wakes earlier.

We're aiming for a consistent 6.30 WU because of the days I work, she needs to be up by then. So a 7pm BT would probably be ok?

So today I could do a 12.00-1.15 nap again and then BT at 6.15? Does that sound ok? It seems like such an early BT!

[clairebear79]

Hiya

Ah, if you are needing her up at 6.30 then I probably wouldn't push the nap to 1pm.  This is more appropriate if you were wanting a 7am WU.  I think if you are wanting to keep the earlier WU of 6.30 then eventually you would need to do more like:

Up 6.30
Nap: 12.30-1.30/1.45
Bed: 6.30

If the nap is going shorter then BT does need to be much earlier.  I know it sounds early but this is to prevent her getting overtired.  And really, if she has to be up at 6.30am then its not so early is it?

I think today with her being up super early then the earlier nap & BT sounds like a good idea.  In all honesty I still wonder if she's a bit OT though.  1hr naps are typically OT naps for us, & she is having long days & short nights.  I think she probably does need a shorter nap overall, but getting there has made her OT IYSWIM?  Would you dare to let her have a longer niap today (if she does of course) & then see how she sleeps overnight?  And with a couple of longer naps/longer nights she may be ready to try the shorter nap again.

This is what we've done the last few days.  He's had 2 days of longer 2hr nap, gone to bed well & last night he slept really well, but up happy & chatty at 6.20am this morning, so I think he's starting to get UT again.  So I'll probably have to nip the longer naps in the bud & try & fathom out this A time to BT all over again. 

[*foxy*]

Hi

Yep, Ill put her down at 12 and see how long she goes for. Is that early enough? If shes OT? I think her teeth might be bothering her as well. If she only has 1.25 hour nap then Ill do a super early BT. If she has 2hours then still keep a BT at 6.15?

[*foxy*]

Hi

The other thing that I was thinking about was changing her BT routine slightly. She seems too wired when I put her in her cot and I think that's partly why we're having BT issues. I was reading through the sticky about toddler wind down routines and some parents are having 'naked play' after bath time, sounds fun! But to get rid of that last bit of energy. M is definitely very active after the bath so maybe we should let her run about a bit and then bring her in her room and do our usual thing after shes got rid of that last bit of energy? Maybe thats why she's kicking the cot sides and getting a bit frustrated too? She also loves 'In The Night Garden' but never gets to watch it as its on too late so I was thinking of having quiet time each night before the bath maybe where she could sit and watch that to help with the wind down, or maybe put it on after shes had a run about?
What do you think? I just think theres more we can do to help her wind down at the end of the day. Shes definitely too wired when we put her in her cot at night and it seems unfair to expect her to just go to sleep when she's not properly relaxed.

[clairebear79]

Hi hun

I'd say if you get a short nap do EBT, if you get a long nap of 2hrs (I think I would cap at 2hrs though) then go for more like 7ish.

WRT the BT difficulties, when you say she is wired, this does make me think OT.  If DS is OT we get similar behaviour, charging around, headbutting things, spinning in circles, and he will moan/chat for ages.  Whereas if he's UT he will go up pretty easily but then chat & sing for ages.  So I think if the nap stays short, then you definitely need to be bringing that BT earlier b/c her day is just so long.

 WRT changing up the routine - its hard to say whether the 'naked play' may let her burn off her energy, or whether it may just serve to wind her up more.  If she is already OT/OS then I would think it might wind her up/excite her more.  Maybe Bex has some thoughts on this

If it helps, our evenings go like this (assuming he is having his usual 7.30pm BT).  Tea at 5pm, then we play for a while in the garden or go for a walk/bike ride.  Back in the house at 6.15/6.30 & CBeebies BT hour goes on & we do some calmer activities like colouring.  (Not sure TV is such a good idea though!).  On bath night, at 6.40pm we go upstairs, run his bath & he baths until 7pm.  Then its into PJ's, down for a bottle, read a story, & back up & into bed for 7.20pm.  On non bath nights we start BT routine at 7pm & do wash, change into PJ's bottle, story, nappy change & bed for 7.20pm.  So our WD  is actually pretty short.  DS seems to like it like this & it gives him the maximum amount of time to play & burn off his energy before we start winding down for BT.  I found in the past when we started calming things down too early he got more revved up b/c he was like 'hey - why can't I carry on playing I'm not tired yet!' IYSWIM?