5month old multiple NW - Exhausted mama needs help :-(

[French1e]

Hi there,

I am is exhausted because of night wakes.

This is my 2nd child (oldest is now 2.5yrs old and such a good sleeper - good bedtime routine and never any battles for going to bed). I read and applied BW techniques (including wake-to-sleep, pu/pd, etc.) with him. Was going so well.
He was on a good routine from 4mo, formula-fed though --I am sure this as something to do with the fact that it was all much more straight forward...-- DF and SSTN at 4 months...)

You know what they say... Different babies are, well, different babies!  ;-P or is the problem an exhausted mommy that can't keep up...?
Now I feel like I am doing it all wrong!

So... 2nd DS:


Was born at 10lbs4ounces and 22.5 inces - big HUNGRY guy.
Fed every 2 hours (or less) during the day until 4months and 1 week.
Now goes about 2.5 - 3 hours between feeds during the day (but then again wakes up A LOT and drinks more often at night!- see below - since the past 5 days it's been the worst!).

Turned 5months on Sunday
Breasfed (usually one breast at the time, for 3 or 4 minutes each time - very efficient. Sometimes in the middle of the day he will take both breast in one feed but it's rare..)
Started cereals on the 11th of feb 4 weeks ago - 2 times a day between 7:00-7:30 and then between 5:00-5:30, started apples last night...
Started cereals because he seemed more hungry and had been feeding every 1:45h during the day for a couple days and waking up more at night. And he is so excited when it's cereal time, too. Sometimes though I do wonder if I should have waited  :-(



Goes to bed between 7 and 8pm
He is not hard to put down at all.
Routine: bath, swaddle, nurse, cuddle sleep.
Sometimes he nurses at 6pm so it's more like: bath swaddle, cuddle and sleep straight away.

Now... Wakes up - this is not the same very often (and sometimes more often than that) but a typical night is at 10pm, 12:30pm, 3.30am, 5:30am is up for the day at 6:30
(so 3 to 4 wakes per night)


I am accidental-parenting him because so exhausted that I put him on the breast just to get him to fall back asleep. During those night wakes {he starts by fussing and I have tried leaving him to see what happens and then he starts to cry... I supposed he is just used to me getting him so that is why he is crying...?}, he doesn't continue crying (thank god for that!) he wants the breast... he does drink almost every time and falls right back asleep (drinks usually about 1 minute or 2 and sometimes his default 3 minutes) so I wonder if he needs that night milk..!
Although when I think of it, he doesn't always drink. Maybe 8/10 times, he just needs the boob to fall straight back asleep... Of course I have tried his dummy - he won't take that during the night to fall back asleep...

Also when I try to put him on the boob more often during the day - to get more in him! - when he is not hungry, he wont take it or stay longer.. he gets mad at me, cries and pushes back... I can't force him!
- 3 weeks ago he had a cold - not a good time to start sleep training with pu/pd...
- 2 weeks ago he was in a growth spurt - not a good time to start sleep training with pu/pd...
- But this week nothing seems wrong and he is still waking-up like crazy... should I start the training with pu/pd?

more info:
Morning nap: 8:00-9:00 or 9:30 - not hard to put down for naps, nor night time actually: do 4S's (still swaddled and seems to still be ok with it), he does have a dummy to fall asleep... Although for more that 1 month now, it is not a problem - he doesn't wake-up when it falls out and sleeps well without it.
Naps of 35 to sometimes 90 minutes (1st morning one usually 60-80 minutes, others during the day are usually shorter), at
Activity is varied: in the activity center but only for short amounts of time (don't want an over-stimulated baby). Just reading books. doing a bit of back and tummy time. Playing under his gym. Watching his toddler brother play and be active when he comes back from daycare...



Awake & Eat: 5:30am
Sleep: 5:30 - 6:30
Eat cereal: 7:00 or 7:30 am
Sleep - 8:00 or 8:30 for anywhere between 45mins to 1h30
Eat - between 9:30 and 10:30
Sleep - 11:00 until 11:45 or midday
Eat - 12:00
Sleep - 1:00 until 2:00
Eat - approx 3:00pm
Sleep 4:00 or 6:00pm (might the irregulaty of the last afternoon nap have something to do with lots of NW...? this last one is never the same as we go get big brother at daycare, sometimes he sleeps in the car but less and less...)
Eat cereal: 5 or 5:30 - sometimes feed before but sometimes after...
BT - 7or 8pm depending on last nap
NW: 10:30 or 11:00, often at 12:30 then at 2 or 3:00 and back to the top!!




Exhausted mama needs a pep talk or solutions...

Thanks SO much in advance! 

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs to you!
I see two things here that I believe will help
1) moving your LO to a 4 hr EASY - he is snacking all day and all night but not getting a full feed to sustain himself.
Have a read through these and let me know what you think.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=120362.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164029.0

2) I think your breast has become a prop or him to get back to sleep. thebest way at this age I think to break this is first decide what time you will feed ad any tie before that resettle without feeding. The first few days will be tough, but it's okay to cuddle, rock, pat etc as long as you not feed.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.msg1845495#msg1845495

Wat do you think? We may need to split your post and move it to Props and get one in EASY but first I'll see if Icahn get some more eyes...

[Rebekahb]

i agree with zacsmumme and noticed you have frequently tried to get him to eat more during the day by trying to bf but if you tried to extend eat times he would probably take more at that one feed then the multiple little feeds you are trying to give him.  Also, because of his birth size, etc as you realize his night feeds are likely not needed but habit.  I would work on stretching him to a 4 hour easy and then slowly eliminating night feeds one at a time..

[French1e]

Thanks SO much for those quick answers you 2! 

So I read this yesterday afternoon (got emotional straight away  - jesus that lack of sleep is a killer...) and thought about it all day and checked out the 'stats' on my baby connect iphone app (life saver)...
I realise that I just put him on the breast sometimes earlier than 3 hours during the day. Say 2h35-2h45. Maybe he is indeed just not that hungry because... it is true sometimes he just has a mini-feed (say 2 minutes). (I have just been SO USED to him feeding every 2hrs that 2h45 seems so long between feeds!) ;-) And in the past week or so, he has started falling asleep on the boob sometimes during the mid-morning feed. As if he was still meant to be sleeping or something. Maybe I was putting him back to be to quick (after between 1h05-1h20 of awake time).

It does feel counter-intuitive to stretch him longer between feeds in order to get more into him each time but maybe he is ready for it as the opposite has not been working...

So, last night he did the old 10:30pm, 12:45am, 3:30am, 5:45am (I am almost not rounding up the numbers either,,, it's pretty much at those times - they are little clocks!). For once, I tried it - I didn't feed him at 12:45. OK I did put his dummy in... picked him up for let's say 15 secs but then was able to put him back in his bed without having to put him on the breast - he was so sleepy that he just fell back asleep.
So he did go 5 hours without feeding and guess what - he didn't die of hunger or anything! ;-) Then at 3:45 he nursed for 3.5 minutes and I could feel he was falling alseep between each sip, having to wake himself up to latch on the nipple again...


Here is what I think I'll do for the next few days: / QUESTIONS 

- Ensure he is really on a 3 hour EASY cycle for starters... and then start increasing to get to 4hours.
- Try to W2S him at least for the 12:45 wake - do you think it's a good idea...?
- Also: What do you think about solids...? should I ease back and give mini portions not to take it away from him (let's say 2tsp morning and night) to ensure he BFs well and then start giving more in 2 weeks?

THANKS So much again! xx

@ZacsMumme: I live in Montréal with my Australian husband (I lived there for 4 yrs and visited NZ). Yes I know you guys are NOT THE SAME!!! hehehe but it's cool to get advice from downunder!   

[Rebekahb]

i know what lack of sleep can do and hope you figure it out soon so the emotions are not quite so quick   Way to go on getting him to sleep last night without the feed.  I never had a lot of W2S success but it is a worth a shot!  I also think if you just went in and gave the soother he would probably sleep through that soon as well and giving the soother at this point is just a sleep aid.  Also, because he was falling asleep at the 3:45 feed that one could probably easily be eliminated soon too! 
I would ease the solids back as you said so he increases milk intake and takes longer milk feeds.  I agree it seems counter productive to feed less often but we are slowly increasing my 3month to a 4hour schedule and yesterday did 3:15 between feeds and instead of her 10-15min feeds she was feeding 25 -30 mins so i definitely think they take more if you wait   also, i think his night wakings will really decrease if you get him on a regular pattern during the day.  continue to watch his eat/nap cycle and like you said i bet he needs to lengthen naps not necessarily eat as soon as he stirs!! 

Good luck and hope today is better than yesterday

[suzeyshoes]

Wow, this could be me speaking! I am in exactly the same situation with my DS2 who's 4.5 months old. I am feeling your pain with the NW (I had no idea it could be so exhuasting since my DS1 was sleeping through from 3 months) and am definitely going to try the advice
Thanks!