shorter naps and night time crib parties

[*Kara*]

LOL!  I miss DD when she sleeps

And about the 1 hr 5 mins - I think DD's cycle is right around that as well... she was asleep at 730pm and just stirred a bit at 835pm

[creations]

OK, it's been a week.
This boy will not go to sleep at 5hrs.
He wasn't ill, and we have enjoyed an illness free week which is great!

8th
A 5hr 45 due to playing/mantra/shouting out for so long.  Eventually when he'd been in his cot 40 mins I got him to sleep by a quick PU and settle, down awake.
S 30min, 35min, 35min (I had to resettle at all) total 1hr 40
A 4hr 5.
BT early eve WUs, plus pre-midnight crib party, plus 5am WU but resettled until 6.40 which is still earlier than his WU should be.
I think he got 8.5hrs sleep that night, in broken chunks.

9th
A 5hr 5 I think the only reason he went to sleep this time was due to having so little during the night
S 1hr 40 without help
A 5hr 40
BT took 30 mins for him to go to sleep making the A long (after25 min he cried and I went in for 3 min to settle him and he went to sleep). early eve WUs, crib party 2am until 3.30am.

10th
A 4hrs begging for his cot, and already crying OT as I changed his nappy for his nap.  SO tired from being up half the night he couldn't do a full A.
S 30 min, 35 min, (I resettled) total 1hr 5
A 6hr 20
BT because his first A was so short and then a short nap his A to bed was long even with EBT or he'd have gone to bed at 5.30pm and I can't expect him to sleep from then until morning.  He still messed around for 30 mins and then I helped him to go to sleep.  Had a NW at 5am, eventually resettled himself or just went quiet until 6.30am

11th
A 5hr 30 Really not ready at 5hr plus then asked for potty which delayed nap.  Went down really well, easy and on his own at 5hr 30.
S 45min, 1hr 10 (down easy but nap resettle) total 1hr 55
A 4hr 20
BT 10mins calm falling to sleep on his own.  STTN 11hr 45 No early evening WUs, no NWs, no crib parties!

12th
A 5hr 45 nap delayed by poop
S 40, 45, 35, went down easy but OT due to nap delay so resettled twice
A 5hr
BT just 5 mins calm falling to sleep on his own.  STTN 11hr 30

13th
A 5hr 30
S 1hr 30, 30 (down easy, nap resettle, but the second nap capped at 30 min to go to docs) total 2hr
A 5hr
BT down easy STTN 11hr 30

14th
A 5hr 30
S 1hr 25 down easy, wouldn't resettle, didn't seem fully refreshed at first but not tired enough to go back to sleep
A 5hr 25
BT down easy, 1 NW but I think he was cold and just needed a blanket putting over him, 12hr 10

So, there have been some group days and non-group days.  he hasn't fallen asleep in the car at all.
Some of the longer first A times were due to pee or poop (or asking for potty), some because he was hungry when we got back from group and needed another snack/lunch before the nap.  He usually has a massive snack (more like lunch) at 11am ish but when snack falls in group time sometimes he eats less because he is distracted and then he needs it when we get home, or if snack is at 10.30 at group he needs another when we get back.
The worst days where the ones trying to force him to sleep at 5hrs, he just is not ready.  This is what was happening before, him taking his own A time up with just not settling (or being hungry or needing a poop).

Any thoughts?
I'm thinking continue with the 5hr 30 first A.  The naps are not great, I'm resettling most/all days which I never used to do but he ends up happy for the rest of the day and sleeps at night which is more important.  
I'm still open to ideas though.

...later...
Oh crap!  I've got so used to him waking at 6.30am that I totally forgot he woke at 7am today.  Tried to put him down for nap at 12 (thinking it was 5.5hr but it was actually 5hr) and have just had a NIGHTMARE 45 mins with him.  Now I feel frazzled and guilty for upsetting him (he was refusing sleep, playful, but then frustrated that he was in his cot so shouting then crying, pointing at the door to go out etc eventually I've 'forced' him to go to sleep in my arms whilst I used all the power of key phrases and then sang a strong sleep association song - he hates going to sleep in my arms!).  We were having such a nice day and I feel like I've ruined it.  What an idiot I am.
Ho hum.  Tomorrow is another day.

[clairebear79]

Hun - really don't worry about today - we all do these things!

I would agree to keep with the 5.5hr A.  If he isn't ready before that then there's not much you can do except go with it!  At the end of the day sometimes it takes a bit of trial & error to figure out what is needed.  I do think it sounds like 5h 45 is too long, esp given all the resettles you are having to do, but perhaps if you give him a bit of time to get used to the 5.5hrs he will be ok.  One thing I have to say I found though, is that my LO could not handle doing 5.5hrs A on BOTH sides of his nap - he just got OT.  So once our morning A got to 5.5hrs, we shortened the PM A time to 5hrs & he slept fantastically well & our routine looked like:

WU: 7am
Nap: 12.30-2.30
BT: 7.30

So that may be something to bear in mind.  We did, however, at around 15/16 months, cap our DS's nap at 2hrs absolute max, b/c we found if we let him nap any longer, then he would only sleep 10hrs at night.

HTH.x

oh & well done on the no car naps!

[creations]

**just realised I made an error in one of the times above.  on 11th his nap was 45min and 1hr 10, total 1hr 55**

I do think it sounds like 5h 45 is too long

Oh I totally agree.  The only days this happened was when I tried putting down at 5 hr and he couldn't get to sleep so ended up so unsettled that it took him over the 5hr 30 before finally sleeping at 5hr 45.

There's part of me doesn't believe 5hr 30 is right either, still too long, because he shouldn't keep having these crying WUs.  They are very easy to resettle on the whole but he must be OT to be getting them, he has pain meds for teeth so I don't think it's that.  But I just cannot get him to go to sleep before 5hr 30 so I can only think/hope that eventually he'll grow into it and won't be getting the WUs during naps.
I might try creeping it shorter by 5 mins though.

Today's nap ended up being 40min then a resettle and he then continued to sleep for a good time.  He had one scream out in his sleep and I dashed up but he was back asleep by the time I got there so it must have been an OT transition (do you think?).  After the resettle he continued to sleep until I eventually woke him at 1hr 40 (plus the first 40min making total 2hr 20) because it was 3.25pm and I started getting concerned about his A to bed etc He's gone to bed close to normal time on 3hr 25 A and was REALLY tired, barely keeping a grip at bath time, even put his hand on my mouth to cut his song short at wind down.
Any thoughts on this?
When he was on 3 and 2 naps he always had a short A to bed so maybe the long first A, short last A still suits him?

I think I'll have to just watch for his nap length and nights.  It 'looks' like 1.5hr nap gets a 12hr (or just over) night but a 2hr nap gets 11.5hr night.  I have no idea really what length A he needs to bed to ensure he goes down well and stays asleep.  I'm basically aiming for 7pm but if he is getting cranky it goes a bit earlier.

Thanks for your support x

[clairebear79]

There's part of me doesn't believe 5hr 30 is right either, still too long, because he shouldn't keep having these crying WUs.  They are very easy to resettle on the whole but he must be OT to be getting them

This would be my thoughts too.

He's gone to bed close to normal time on 3hr 25 A and was REALLY tired, barely keeping a grip at bath time, even put his hand on my mouth to cut his song short at wind down.
Any thoughts on this?
When he was on 3 and 2 naps he always had a short A to bed so maybe the long first A, short last A still suits him?

It does sound like he needed a mega catch up nap there, & the fact he still went down ok at BT suggests there must be some OT lingering.

It could certainly be worth trying a 5-10min shorter A & just see if he naps better.  Or you keep with the 5.5hrs, keep on resettling him & work on the A time to BT, to try & figure out what suits him.  At least that way you are only changing 1 thing IYSWIM?  I'd say 5hrs absolute max, but possibly nearer to 4.5hrs, which with a 2hr nap would give you a 12hr day.  I know he went down much sooner today, but my only worry with that on a frequent basis is that he might end up going down to bed UT, which may lead to NW/EW.

I hope he has a restful night tonight anyway.xx
xx

[creations]

Thanks Claire.

I'm just mulling it over now.
The EBTs he had when we moved to one nap were great, he did some 12 and 13 hr nights (wow I loved that) but the recent EBTs have just resulted in him being awake in his cot for a long time (up to 40 mins so it ends up later than it would have been had I gone for a normal BT and got him down in 2 mins), I kind of think he's in the habit of more of a set BT or 10 - 15 mins earlier.
Pretty difficult to keep it on track with a short nap, less than 12 hr night and trying to keep the A times reasonable too.

I'll let you know how things go.
Thanks again for your support x

[creations]

OK, it's only been a couple of days but it's not going great

After my stupidity on the 15th of accidentally trying to put him down for a nap too early, I made sure 16th was right on, it was a pretty good day.
WU 6.50
A 5hr 30/35 (I tried for 15 min earlier but no way would he have it)
S 1hr 20 then woken by an external noise, I resettled him very quickly and slept a further 40min. total 2hr.
A 4hr 40
BT 7pm 12hr night. couple NW but very brief and I think he just needed his blanket putting back on him.
This would be great if it was every day eh?

17th
WU 7
A 5hr 30
S 1hr, took several mins to resettle, another 40 min sleep. total 1hr 40
A 4hr 40
BT 7.00 early eve WUs, 3.20am NW, 5.30am EW and up for the day 6.20am. total about 11hr 20
I'm not even sure he went back to sleep after the 5.30EW but he did go quiet so maybe he nodded off for a little while.
Why is he waking so early and wanting to get up?

18th
WU 6.20 (I had to go from somewhere so made it when he shouted to get up at this time)
A 5hr 40 - too long, due to spending SO long eating!
S 40min, resettle, 1hr. total 1hr 40
A 5hr 15
BT 6.55pm couldn't get him down earlier. 3am NW. WU 5 or 5.30am I'm not totally sure.  He was trying to go back to sleep so I left him to it until 6am when he shouted to get up. night sleep about 10 or 10.5hrs.

He must be OT.  His nap is shorter and his nights are shorter but I'm resettling those naps as much as possible (ie at the 1hr 40 I am still trying to get him to go back down but he won't have it), I can't get my head around it.  If he is OT for the nap then I should be able to put him down earlier but can't, I should be able to resettle but am only partially successful.

Today is a disaster.  He was awake so early this morning that he ended up napping in the car on the way home from group (and you know I'd successfully prevented that last week).  Transferred to cot, he slept total of 1hr 15 and wouldn't resettle. It seemed to be both hunger and needing the potty - if he hadn't fallen asleep in the car he could have finished his large snack/lunch when we got home and gone potty too.  Oh dear.  Now it will be a long A to bed.  The last few times I tried for EBT he was not happy about it at all so it was unsuccessful.

When he wakes at roughly 7am the day is great, when he early wakes the day is totally thrown.

I'm lost. any thoughts?

[ZacsMumme]

mmmmm So it looks like 5hrs30 dives a 1hr40 min nap that 'looks' OT. I wonder if he needs a shorter first A then a loner second A (ie your second A of 4hrs40 - to combat the OT has poss meant he was UT at BT )

I know he fought at 5hrs15 but do you think you could try for 5hrs and a longer A to BT (5-5hrs30) . It does look like that first A is too long IMO

I would also be tempted to try a fixed nap if you cant get it right for him. I think at this age they respond a bit better to them, but you will have to be really consistant for 10 days or so to push through OT. Personally it wouldnt work for us, but it does for some

[creations]

Thanks Sara, I really appreciate your time and thoughts.
I've become so used to the later mornings (7am WU, even though it's only been a couple of months) that these early mornings are killing me atm, I'm so tired I'm starting to feel desperate to 'fix' his sleep and yet I know full well this is not the right attitude.

I tried to get a 5hr A for a full week.  He never looked ready for it and on the days we weren't delayed by potty/poop or something and I actually got him in his cot at 5hrs he fussed about (laughed, played, cried/shouted for attention and laughed when I went in, threw his lovey out the cot, lay down and mantra-cried, sat up etc) for so long that his A time ended up being 5hr 45!  Even a couple of days back when I was aiming for 5hr 30 but accidentally got my times wrong and actually tried to PD at 5hr we ended up with 45 mins of hell before he went to sleep (last paragraph of reply 16 above).  I just cannot make him sleep at 5hr and I haven't got the patience and energy to keep going for 45 mins.
When I put him down at 5hr 30 he looks and acts ready has a little cuddle and goes in his cot, turns over, snuggles down and goes to sleep.  It LOOKS perfect, he just doesn't stay asleep so it isn't perfect.  We (DS and I) both seem to have an easier time of it with me doing the mid nap resettles rather than the 45 min 'fighting' for a nap.

The EW today was between 5 and 5.30am (a 10 or 10.5hr night.  I remember looking at the clock but was so tired I didn't remember the time) I left him until 6am as he wasn't crying (eventually he was shouting to get up) and there were a few days during all this disruption when he had a 5am crib party but eventually nodded off again if I didn't go disturbing him so I was in hope he might go back to sleep and wake again at 7am.
Clearly with a WU that early he isn't going to get through the day well.
If I'd given a really early nap he wouldn't have got through the afternoon and I can't make bed time as early as 5pm or he'll be up the next day at 3.

I'm lost!

Perhaps I need to try the fixed nap like you suggested. Maybe if I went for 12pm or 12.15pm he would start out with v long A due to the EW but if his morning WU went back to 7am then we'd be set at 5hr/5hr 15min.  Does this sound right for 14 months?  Would I do fixed BT too?  I did manage EBT today but he's refused EBT the last few weeks that that he's been having these sleep difficulties.

[Khalam's Mama]

My 1st toughts were UT nap leading to OT. I would have stretched that 1st A personally. Although now you are in a bit of a OT nightmare so would be hard to do...

[creations]

Thanks for your thoughts KM, much appreciated.

Today resulted in
WU 5-5.30am (not sure)
A 5hr 45 - 6hr 15 (no crankiness at all)
S 1hr 15 (fell asleep in the car, roused when transferred to cot, refused resettle was hungry)
A 5hr 55 (fussy on and off in the afternoon but half of that could be me having less patience as I am so tired)
EBT 6.25pm (down easy)
A long day.  He's totally zonked out.  I've heard two minor stirrings with no call to resettle at all and as it's now 11pm I feel pretty safe that he won't be awake before midnight.  So, shall just see how long he manages for his night sleep and fingers crossed we have a better wake up time in the morning (secretly hoping for a glorious 12.5hr night, dreading a 10hr night!).

[ZacsMumme]

If I remember right you had a later nap before...but it was too late and you worked on shortening it. If thats right then as KM says it could be she needs a longer A but because she is now already OT she is now waking early from that nap. So in that case...KM would you agree Creations may have to push through the OT with a set nap? Or very gradually try to push that first A out closer to 5hrs45?

Or...would your LO take an AM CN - just for 1 day to get to a reasonable BT without too much OT, then start from scratch the next daY?

[creations]

If I remember right you had a later nap before...but it was too late and you worked on shortening it.

So far I haven't intentionally taken him up to a higher A than 5hr 30.
The 5hr 30 came from him taking the A up himself (in various ways).
The few 5hr 45 came from things like trying to put him down at 5hr and he was so UT for it that he fussed beyond the 5hr 30 mark because he was unhappy to be put down early.

Every nap is short, every nap I resettle as much as he'll allow.
One thing nagging at me is that when we moved to one nap and his nap shortened (from a great 2hr morning nap to a not so great one nap) I kept resettling him to extend the nap and his nights went rubbish.  When I stopped extending his nap and just let him wake whenever he wanted his nights went great (naps varied, 1hr 5, 1hr 45,  and nights ranged from 11hr 45 to 13hr 10).  Obviously moving to one nap has a bumpy adjustment time so I can't really judge that period of time as 'normal' but what's nagging at me is that it like we are in the same situation again, me extending naps and nights getting worse.

I could push up to 5hr 45 or do a set nap.  As all his naps have to be resettled anyway it makes no odds to DS or me :/

Sara, I don't think I can get a morning CN.  He did once or twice fall asleep at about 2.5hrs for 10 mins on the way to toddler group but it was the lull of the car, he was poorly too, and I had to then delay his main nap by another hour or two because he wouldn't sleep.

Last night was good, STTN, no early eve WUs, no crib party.  WU was 5.55am (rather than 7am) but considering our clocks move forward at the weekend I'd have to shift him around gradually anyway.  This way we can take advantage of our mess with an advanced clock change iyswim.  On Sunday a 6am WU will become a 7am WU.

[Khalam's Mama]

Great night. I would try to push that nap to 11.45 with that Wu and decent night. I am also hoping the clock change will give me a more acceptable Wu time.

[creations]

Thanks KM.

Just catching up now and DS is already down for his nap.
Being a bit unsure of where to go with the nap I aimed for just over the 5hr 30 and took him up 11.30 (5hr 35, not much of a push!) but by 11.35 it was clear he wasn't having it so I brought him back down.  hummed and hahhed about when to try again and thought I'd try closer to his normal (ish) time.  He's had quite a few 12 and 12.30 naps (depending on WU time) so I held that in my mind and waited to see what DS did.
He 'asked' to go up around 12.05pm, took him up, normal quick wind down of 2 min, down easy and awake, turned over snuggled down and went to sleep by 12.10pm.  I'm expecting some wake ups during this nap.
So, 6hr 15 A this morning which sounds silly long but maybe more of a set nap works for him.  not sure how this will go with the clock changes but there's a few days before that happens so maybe a pattern will emerge by then.

...ah yes the first screaming wake up 12.37 (27 min in to nap), really screaming and wouldn't settle, then I got a whiff of his bum.  He must have woken and pooped.  Mad dash bum clean up with him screaming throughout.  After bum clean he was calm, happy, back to bedroom, quick cuddle, quiet, back in cot, awake, tired, turned and went to sleep 12.47pm.  The nap disturbances are never as long as this, but then he never normally poops during a nap (we've had nap delays whilst he poops, and nap refusal because he needed one, but no mid-nap poops).