20mo so many sudden sleep issues - refusing his lovie, fighting sleep, NWs, EWs

[st3r]

for the past 2 months (appears to have been triggered by our first overseas holiday as a family!), our now 20mo has suddenly had all these sleep issues arise, as if we had come back from overseas with a completely different baby!

I know there was probably some jet lag issues there for awhile but routine wise we are almost back on track (except for late BTs with him taking over an hour to go down).

The thing that puzzles me most is why he suddenly now refuses his lovie - which was his blankie. He will now throw it away at BT or nap time if you try to give it to him and he gets all upset about it. Instead he now wants to always hold onto my shirt till he falls asleep (he is also a thumb sucker since little). It has gotten to the point where he now also wont sleep in the car unless i sit beside him and let him hold my shirt (i dont do this often as I ride in the front so he just refuses to sleep).

He is in a big boy bed so our only way of getting him to sleep is for me to lay with him and let him hold my shirt but this takes over an hour each and every day with him putting on a big fight before bed..

We get NWs often now and some EWs ( i think on the nights he gets to bed really late).

Im not sure what to try anymore...

our EASY generally looks like this

8:30 wake
1/1:30 - 3:30 nap (this varies anywhere from a 1.5 hr nap to a 2.5 hr nap)
try to have him in bed by 9/9:30 max but with the sleep issues he will often not be able to get to sleep till 10 or later

often have NW around 1am - resettle by having to go and lie with him for around half an hour - if i try anything else at this point he gets very worked up and can be awake during the night for 1-2 hours


edited to say he is also lately as of the last week or so refusing or unable to fall asleep with daddy... i suppose this is something associated wth him always having to hold my shirt to sleep

any suggestions on what this could be or how we can address it?

[clairebear79]

Hiya

Reading your post I am wondering if he may be UT, since he is taking so long to fall asleep.  His AM A time of 4.5-5hrs is pretty short for his age, & the fact that he's not even sleeping in the car would point to him not being tired enough too.  I suspect this is what is causing your naptime battles.  Furthermore the early nap is likely to encourage him to EW & its my guess he will make up for his short night with a super long nap (2.5h)

I wonder if you could try gradually pushing the nap later by 15mins every few days until he's doing a consistent 5.5hrs A time before his nap, and see whether he settles more quickly for his nap.  If he still takes a long time to go over, you might need to push that A time nearer to 6hrs. 

You should hopefully find that as the AM A time gets longer, his A time in the PM will get a bit shorter & hopefully he will settle for bed a bit better.

IIWM I would also cap the nap at 2hrs absolute max b/c I think if you allow him to sleep longer in the day you will most likely have a shorter night. 

It might be that the nap needs to be capped even shorter than 2hrs to get you some consistently longer nights.  We are just starting to do this with my 18.5 month old DS & he is currently doing 5.75hrs A / 1h 45min nap / 5hrs A.  However, I would work on extending that AM A time first though, then once its at least 5.5hrs we can reasess & work on capping the nap if its needed.

I have a feeling that if you tweak his routine, his settling issues may resolve, but if he is still desperate to hold onto your shirt then there are methods you can use such as GW/WIWO to help him to settle independently.

What do you think?

[st3r]

thanks for the reply Claire. I never really considered that it could be from too short a morning A time.

Its actually been BT thats been the worse and only recently naps.... could he be too OT at bedtime from too long a pm A as it does seem hes very hard to switch off...

im also thinking our winddown may not be long enough for him at BT as we only read 1 or 2 books and he cries so much after the book is finished and we turn the lights out.

I will give it a go tweaking his routine. though last night he only had 9 hours sleep very short so should i try to balance out his sleep before giving him a longer morning A?

[Texomamama]

So funny that you talk him about using your shirt as a lovie.  My 18 mo does the exact same thing.  She has never really used a blankie, she always reaches for my shirt, or her own shirt sleeves.  I guess that is more common than I thought  

[st3r]

yes it is funny he loves holding my shirt but not just for sleep he does it alot during the day now and when i am holding him.

but things are going from bad to worse on the sleeping front, tonight he is still not asleep after 2 hours of trying and it is already 10:30pm. what used to take 1 hour is now taking over 2.... we dont know what else to try

[Kay Dee]

Hiya, I agree with Claire, I think his nap needs capping. Have you tried this yet?

My 20month old DD has totally dropped her nap, it's the only way to get solid nights out of her. Now she's very low sleep needs, so I'm not saying yours needs anything that extreme! But it does sound like he needs less than he's currently having if he's taking so long to settle for bed.

HTH
K x

[clairebear79]

Can I ask what is your ideal routine anyway?  Is it the 8.30am WU / 9pm BT that you posted above?  Or would you ideally like him to get up & go to bed a little earlier eg 7.30am WU / 8pm BT  And when you mention EW, how early is he actually waking at the moment?

Its actually been BT thats been the worse and only recently naps.... could he be too OT at bedtime from too long a pm A as it does seem hes very hard to switch off...

Yes he could be OT at BT b/c you are right it is a very long A time in the PM.  So in the first instance you could try putting him down a bit earlier & see if he settles better.

However, I would really recommend you extend his A time in the AM.  The short nights are related to the nap being too early in the day and the A time to BT being too long, and so by extending the AM A time, (and reducing his PM A time) this will balance out his day more, and by capping the nap it will remove his opportunity to make up for lost night sleep at the nap.  The result is that he should settle at BT more easily, AND the NW/EW should disappear.  

You could do this either by:

1) if you want to keep the 8.30am WU, by very gradually pushing the nap later, by 15mins per week, until the nap starts at 2pm, capped at 2hrs max and at the same time aim for BT being no more than 12.5hrs from wakeup time.

OR

2) if you want to shift his routine earlier you could try gradually bringing his wakeup time earlier e.g. if you ideally want him getting up at 8am, you could gradually wake him 5mins earlier every few days until he's getting up at 8 instead of 8.30, but keep his nap at 1.30pm, so his AM A time will gradually increase to 5.5hrs.  At the same time you could cap the nap at 2hrs max & gradually bring BT earlier until he's going to bed at around 8pm.  

Either way, it will be difficult, especially while his nights are so short.  So you may have to hang in there for a while & ride out some OT.  And offer an earlier BT if he really seems to be struggling.

We recently did this with DS who was napping at 11ish for 2-2.5hrs, & he started to wake really early at 5-5.30am.  I pushed his nap 15mins later per week until it was 12.30-2.30 & at the same time I pushed BT later until it was 7.30.  It took about 4-6 weeks to get the nap times where I wanted them, and during this time his wakeup gradually improved & for the last couple of months he's been up at 7am & we've had a nice 2hr nap.  The EW have come back again, so now we're capping his nap at 1h 45 & it seems to be helping.

I do think capping the nap may be the way to go, but I think you need to address his A times first before you do.

What do you think?

[st3r]

For the moment id be hapy with 8.30wu and 9pm bt.
Yesterday we aimed to only gradually push out his nap but he resisted for so long he didnt end up napping til 2pm anyway and woke him at 4 though he did want to sleep longer to make up for that 9 hr night.

However come bedtime last night we tried winddown from 8.30 but it was another terrible night he did not go down til 11.40pm...over 3 hours of trying to get him to sleep

We had nw at 1.15am and then ew at 6.45.... Dh has been trying to get him back to bed with no luck so another very short night. With the nights this short and mornings so early how shld i place his nap?

[clairebear79]

(((hugs))) its so tricky b/c he will be tired from all the short nights, but it might be that he's making up for it with his nap & so his day sleep is robbing his night sleep IYSWIM?  That was one heck of a short night last night so I would keep an eye on how he is coping this morning, with a view to putting him down at around 12/12.30 perhaps?  I know this is early compared to usual but it might just help get things back on track.  Cap the nap at 2hrs max & then try & have him in bed asleep by 7.30/8ish?  At least then you aren't pushing him to do a 14hr+ day which will inevitably make him overtired & more difficult to settle come bedtime.

Depending on what happens overnight, I think you may need to look at capping his nap sooner rather than later, in order to get that BT happening earlier.  It is far better for him to have a shorter nap, a much shorter day and a longer night, than for him to have a really long day and a long nap IYSWIM?

FX'd & lots of sleepy vibes coming your way.xx

[st3r]

thankyou for the advice..yesterday we got him down for his nap at 1 and he napped for 2 hours then woke himself. i managed to get him down to bed at 8:30pm (though with abit of APOPing at first to try to get him down at a decent hour before putting him into his bed drowsy)..though he did wake crying constantly almost every half hour from 8:30pm until 12:30pm then after that he slept through till 8:15am.

his nap today did get pushed out as we were out at the park and almost lost track of time! but perhaps the pushing out really helped as he barely fought his nap at all and was down at 2pm. the problem is i was holding him when he fell asleep as he went down so quick after reading his book.

would you suggest i keep trying to get him down on schedule before starting GW or WI/WO to help him learn to sleep more independently without having to hold onto my shirt?

[st3r]

hi just wanted to update again as we are not making any progress it seems. naps he seems to be going down better again and although they are never more than 2 hours and the morning A time has extended itself, he is taking 2 huors or more to get down for BT and we really dont know what else to do.

he doesnt seem to be fighting the BT routine as much BUT lying in bed he tosses and turns, up and down etc for over 2 hours even  us lying next to him, letting him hold my shirt and me stroking to try to calm him down when he gets fidgety but it is still takign an incredibly long time for him to go down. any ideas?

[clairebear79]

is he still having a 2hr nap most days?  what is your easy looking like now?

What about trying to cap his nap a bit?  We are already capping my almost 19month old's nap at 1h 45 b/c he wasn't settling well at BT and he was waking early.  It seems to be helping.

Its difficult to know whether the needing your help at BT is down to a prop issue or whether he's wanting you there b/c he's not tired enough to sleep.  This was my thinking with trying to cut the nap first, because if its a routine issue, then by making him more tired for BT you might find he settles better & needs less help.  Of course if he is still wanting lots of help even with a shorter nap then I would definitely try GW or WI/WO.

[st3r]

For the last 3 days he has only been napping 1.5 hours consistently and not due to us capping it but him jiust waking. And not waking happy mind you either...infact he rarely ever wakes from sleep happy which makes me wonder if hes not getting enough.
Still with the shorter naps he isnt going down til 10.30-11pm and tonight hes up again at 12midnight. His cries are more whingey cries  however we left him but they continued and escalated til one of us had to attend to him. This makes me wonder if it is a prop thing that he realises we are not threre

[Kay Dee]

Hiya, gosh, that sounds tough! What has his EASY looked like the last few days? WU time, nap time, bedtime?

x

[st3r]

Hi its been awhile since i wrote as i wanted to see if there was any change but we are still battling bedtimes and hes sleepin far less hrs then what he shld... With daylight saving ending last weekend hes now waking around 8.. stil hard to get down for naps normaly going down at 2pm.
Naps for about 1.5hrs these days
Stil taking hours to fall asleep at night til around 10pm
So llong days and too short nights still
Running out of ideas