14month sleep hell

[daniel]

Hello all, after EASY and PUPD did wonders for our now 3year old (although he is starting to refuse his mid-day nap) we are having big problems with our second kid. Having a big brother around that might wake up and that has a schedule on his own makes it really hard to observe a strict EASY, and I believe we may have screwed up a bit with kid number two. He sleeps through some nights and others are a mess (my wife is currently doing PUPD with him, 10pm wake-ups seem to be a new pattern :-( ). We also recently moved, which probably doesn't help to build structure either.
I don't want to let my little one down, and it makes me sad to realize that he probably got the short end of the stick. What are you guys (the ones with more than one kid) doing?!

[*Becky*]

Could you post your EASY for me even if it is just a rough one so I can see wake up time, naps and bedtime.

It is REALLY hard with 2, I get it. If both of mine are sleeping well at one time I consider it an unexpected bonus

[ELR2010]

I would like help w this as I am expecting #2 and I'm sure will be in a similar boat soon.  . Good luck to you

[daniel]

EASY:
he consistently wakes up between 6 and 6:20 am
E: 7am breakfast, getting ready to leave the house for library/outdoor play etc.
S/A: he sometimes falls asleep in the car or stroller on the way there (around 9am), if, however, I decide to stay home for him to nap, he doesn't sleep at that time.
E:12pm: lunch (his older brother used to go to sleep after lunch, but he doesn't anymore, even later he doesn't sleep, but gets unbearable after 3:30)
(A: 1pm some more play time, if he took a cat nap in the car/stroller)
S:1pm/2pm: PU/PD, usually for about 1 hour until I give up and get him out of his bed or (if he seems even more tired than usual) rock/shush-pat him to sleep or put him on our bed and rest next to him (he then sleeps a 45 minute sleep cycle)
E: snack at about 4pm
A: play outside or take a walk/play with other kids
E:dinner at6
S:7pm, he usually goes to bed without crying, we just put him in his crib
recently:
wakes up between 9:30 and 10pm, crying, PU/PD, give him water,...takes between 10 and 45 minutes
then one erratic waking at night (can't be hunger, though, he eats a lot during the day and for dinner)

Thank you for your advice. This really affects our family life in a very negative way!

[*Becky*]

so is it a nap routine you would like help with?

It sounds to me like he is OT - the waking at 10pm would suggest that.

At this age some lo's are having 1 nap and some still 2. If you want to aim for one nap I would do it about 5-5.5 hours after wake up so around 11.30am, maybe 12pm if he has woken around 6.30am. By 1pm he is probably OT which is causing the problems.

Do you have a consistent nap time wind down?

I tend to leave DS with an activity or a short TV programme when I am putting DD down so he has something to occupy him.

[daniel]

Thank you so much for your swift reply! I am sure you are right about being OT! We put him down at 12:30 today after he slept until 6:45, and it was rather easy to get him to sleep. I am curious, if he will make it through more than one sleep cycle. Should we do a round of PU/PD, if he doesn't sleep longer than 45 minutes?
4 weeks ago I tried two naps (after he was more or less on one "nap" (cat nap) for a while, but it messed up our day so much, and he ended up not sleeping at all except for stroller/car rides.
Thanks again, hope it gives us some peace!

[*Becky*]

Good news he went down easily. How did the nap go?

I never used PUPD with my two but you could post on the board and see if someone could help. Tbh I found with naps it was usually a routine issue if they short napped so I worked on that.

45 mins usually indicates UT so it is probably a question of experimenting with A times a little.

[Khalam's Mama]

Ita with pp. I would aim 1nap around 11.30 or 12mo latest with a 6am Wu. I would avoid letting him sleep at 9ish. Maybe when nw are gone he will last the journey.otherwise I would avoid anything long enough for him to sleep.

[daniel]

Nap went okay yesterday. He woke up after 45 minutes, my husband put him onto our bed (tststs) where he slept for another 1h45 min by himself.
Bedtime went well, except he woke up 3 times before 10pm. We think he is teething, gave him ibuprofen, he slept until 7:45 today.

Messed up his nap today, because they went for a walk/bike ride/ride in the stroller (around noon, that might really be his nap time), so he fell asleep on the way back and slept outside in the stroller. Oh well.
Bedtime was easy again today.

Will try PU/PD for his next short nap. Thanks for your advice, it really has helped (fingers crossed)

[Khalam's Mama]

Great.let us know.

[daniel]

Well...
WU 6:20 today
A: unfortunately inside due to severe storm
S:11-11:45. then PU/PD for 10 min, but he was just completely raged, so my husband took him out of  bed.

Should I try longer tomorrow for naps? I don't think we can squeeze in a second nap in the afternoon, but he will be OT by the time we will put him down for the night.

Thanks once more

[Khalam's Mama]

I would try 11.30 nap. Maybe 11 was too early. 45min is typically ut. Do a really early bt and hopefully he will do a long night.

[daniel]

So, he went to bed at 6pm, woke up 3 times before 10, but slept through until 7:20 am
We had lots of A time, down for naps at 12:30, woke up after 45 minutes. I am sure he is still very tired, but there is nothing I can do with PU/PD. He falls asleep as soon as he is in my arms and cries as soon as he notices I am about to put him down.
Any more advice/ideas?
Thanks a bunch!

[Khalam's Mama]

Maybe that 5hr A is too short esp after a long night like that. Maybe try 5.5hrs???
PUPD at this age really doesn't actually involve that much pu. Have you seen this?
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=208990.0

[daniel]

Will try  5.5 hours tomorrow.
Still hoping for a good night, since he was in bed by 6pm tonight and so far only woke up once.
Well, not picking him up doesn't work, he can get up and be put down for a long time while frantically crying...