15mo EW 5am everyday whatever I do.... *update now 4.30am* help pls!!

[j.and.e]

Am lost with DS2s sleep. Whatever I do for nap, BT, etc, he is waking early. Sometimes only getting 11hours sleep in 24.

Here are some days which are pretty representative

Tuesday March 20th
wake 5.20am
Nap 12.50-1.55pm
BT 7pm

Saturday March 24th
Wake 5.35
Nap 11-12.30
BT 7pm

Sunday March 25th
Wake 6am (clocks changed though so really 5!)
Nap 1pm-2.30pm
BT 8pm

Monday March 26th
Wake 6.40am
Nap 12.40-2.40pm
BT 8pm

Tuesday March 27th
Wake 5am
Nap 12.40-2.40
BT 8pm

Wednesday March 28th
Wake 5am
Nap 10-10.20
Nap 1pm-3pm
BT 7.20pm

Thursday March 29th
Wake 5am


Please can someone give me some suggestions. His behaviour is tantrummy and I'm certain he needs more sleep. I'm not sure whether his days are too long leading to OT, but then I worry about bringing his nap early in case it re-inforces the early wake.

I realise he doesn't have a consistent and good routine, partly because I keep changing things hoping that something will work, and partly because he is looked after by MIL, daycare and me, and I have a 3year old DS1 so he sometimes has to fit in with DS1s activities.

I am happy to have a try at implementing something consistent. The easiest naptime is sometime after lunch (as on Tuesday nursery starts at 1pm).

I don't mind about BT and wWu as long as it doesn't start with a 5! I don't mind about nap length either (as long as he's getting enough sleep!)

DS1 is on a 7-7 routine, but is very good and very flexible and will pretty much sleep 12 hours whenever put to bed. He will also happily play by himself for an hour in the morning (until his clock lights up).

I suppose my dream would be
WU 7am
Nap ?
BT 7.30pm

I don't want BT later than 8.30pm as I like to have time to get things done in the evenings. I'd be happy to start the day at 6am, although closer to 7 the better as he sometimes wakes DS1 in the mornings and that's not ideal.

Please can someone have a look through my diary and make some suggestions?? Is he OT, UT, both..?

What should I try next...?

Thanks xx

[clairebear79]

Hiya hun

The 2 biggest suggestions I could make are this:

1) consistency - I won't bleat on about this too much b/c I know you are already aware its not very consistent atm.  I was same as you, when I had prolonged EW I was so desperate to get rid of it I would try anything and everything.  And if no result in a day or two I would try something else.  And in all honesty it didn't help b/c it was confusing for DS.  Whatever routine change you make takes time to implement & time for them to adjust to, so you need to give it at least a week before changing anything at all.

2) on his 1 nap days, the nap is simply too late & his day is too long.  Eg Monday 20th March he was awake 7.5hrs before his nap & that is just too long for a 15 month old.  He was OT at naptime & hence why you only got a 1hr nap.  And BT was 7pm which may seem early compared to usual, but isn't early enough when he's been up since 5.30am.

Tuesday 27th March - up 5am, nap 12.40-2.40 so again 7h 40 A time in the AM is just too long. 

Given how early he is waking I would suggest starting off with an earlier nap of 11.30am.  Let him sleep 2hrs & then put him in bed 5hrs later i.e. 6.30pm.  Repeat for a week.  Its imperative to do this to get rid of the OT that has accumulated.  'You should find after the first few days his nap lengthens, and his nights start to lengthen.  THEN & only then, can you start to push it all later to get back to the routine you want.  So you would push the nap and bedtime later by 15mins every few days. until you are doing something like nap 12.30-2.30 & BT 7.30 & this will hopefully get you that 7am WU.

Your only other option really if you don't favour pulling everything earlier on a temporary basis is to set naptime at say 12.30pm, & stick to it like glue every day, but then offer a super early bedtime if he doesn't nap for 2hrs.  So if for eg he napped 1hr from 12.30-1.30, I would have him in bed for 6pm latest.  And you should start to find he sleeps longer at night.  Which in turn will shorten the A time to his nap & which should encourage the nap to lengthen.  As the nap gets gradually longer you can gradually push bedtime out, so when he's napping 12.30-2.30 he goes to bed 7-7.30.

Hope this helps.xx

[j.and.e]

Thanks. Think 11.30'l b dificult to acheive consistantly with MIL and nursery. Today he did wake 5am (but i cuddld him quietly til 5.45) then nap 12.40-2.25 then bt 6.30 (shatterd). I cud try for an 11.30 nap nxt 3days as he is home. Trouble is i often get 1.5hr naps (or less!) so mite get WU 5am nap 11.30-1pm BT 6pm? If he wakes earlier than 5am what do i do? 4 or 4.30am is possible after a 6.30 bt... yikes! Thanks for ur help! Am so depresd as spent months looking fwd 2the clock change to fix this... Now its happend and theres no hope. :-(

[stardust599]

Claire has given some awesome advice there.  I know  it's hard to get the times consistent but I had the same issue with the EW and the ONLY thing that worked was sorting the A times, beating the OT and consistency.  My LO generally spend 3 days with my Mum 3 with me and 1 with OH so I understand just how hard it is.  Unfortunately nothing worked for us until I got everyone working together and on the same routine.  We recently achieved 13hour nights for a while (and then I pushed my luck and got an EW this morning aha!)

I know you are getting a 1.5hour nap or less but that's because of OT and the only way to break that cycle with the EW is to start the nap earlier.

I am betting that even with a 6pm bedtime he won't wake any earlier than 5am!  He will actually be more rested the next day as putting him to bed earlier allows him to sleep longer at night.  And when he is more rested he will nap longer and you can get to a reasonable bedtime with no OT and then no EW.  And the difference in his mood will be noticeable too - less tantrums, better eating, less seperation anxiety etc.

Have you tried any APing at his EW to see what happens?  Sometimes I can break the habit by rocking LO back to sleep or giving a bottle for 2 mornings.  Just be sure it doesn't become a long term habit or that will encourage the EW.  There is also the option of trying Wake-To-Sleep if routine tweaking doesn't work.

Good luck tonight, I'm sure that with his 6.30pm bedtime he will feel a little better tomorrow x

[j.and.e]

Thanks stardust! He has already done dozens of cryouts poor wee man. AP doesnt work 4him. I can bring him to bed and he will BF for 15min or so but then he gets up climbs out and opens the door! Also am trying to wean, but keep giving in as i hope i can lie down 4a bit longer... Xx

[*Kara*]

I agree with Claire hun... his day needs to be shorter to keep it managable.. once he starts to catch up on the OT from the massive A times/short naps/night, he will start to wake later and allow you to shift the day a bit...

Is a 730 wake time okay for you?  If so, you could shoot for this:

wake 730am
nap 1/130 - 330pm
BT 8pm.

[j.and.e]

Thanks ladies! So after 6.30pm bt we had NW at 3.20 (he askd 2get up but i got him back down in bout 20min) then up at 6am! Hurrah! Longest nite in months! Shud i try a 12pm nap? So 12-2 then 7.30 bt or if 12-1.30 then 7pm bt? Xx

[j.and.e]

Ok did nap at 12, actually more like 11.50, but a lawn mower woke him at 1.10ish and he was CROSS! Did 6.10pm bt and he settld straitaway. DH has voluntrd for 2mz's stupid o'clock start... Xx

[stardust599]

He won't have a stupid o'clock start - positive thinking!

Blooming lawnmower!!!  It's this summer weather!  Is he prone to being woken by noises etc.?  Do you have a fan or anything on for white noise?  We have a cheap £7 air purifier from eBay - it's not very loud - a bit like a bathroom extractor fan going but it really blurs out the harshness of outside noises and LO sleeps so much better with it.

[*Kara*]

Oh how I hate lawnmowers!

We have a really loudly ticking clock in DD's room and it seems to get her through most things outside...

[j.and.e]

Thanks ladies! He can be sensitive to noise. I put a fan noise on 4him. Will let u know how 2nite goes... Xx

[j.and.e]

5.45am, after 6.10pm bt. Thats a really long nite 4him! 11.5hrs! Shud i try nap at 12 or 12.30 (given he usually wakes at 5 after a lot less sleep?) xx

[clairebear79]

YAY for the great night!!!!  I'd still say 12 latest.  Give it a few more days before starting to push him.  What you need to happen first is for him to give you a consistently longer nap.  Then you will be able to GRADUALLY push the nap back out, 15mins per week until its at 12.30.

[j.and.e]

Thanks claire, we managd asleep at 12.15. If he did 2hr nap shud i try 5.5hr? So up 5.45 nap 12.15-2.15 bt 7.45? 5hr a if less than 2hr? Or do i try bit earlier to keep day shorter? Xx

[clairebear79]

Hmmm.  The length of A time to BT is tricky.  Up until a few weeks ago my DS was doing 5hrs after a 2hr nap & that seemed to suit him just fine.  As you know its too short now!  But he is 19.5 months old & I think his sleep needs have dropped!

IIWM I'd probably try 5hrs (assuming you get 2hr nap).  Better that than stretch the day & make him OT by BT.  If you got longer eg 2.5hrs then I would do 5.5.  Although IME long naps like that just lead to EW!  If you get a much shorter nap eg 1hr, do as yesterday & an early BT.

HTH.x