2 - 1 Hell - please take pity on this poor soul!!!!

[Losh]

Hi folks, I am losing the will to live right now and would welcome any input on my problem!

Around Christmas time my little boy Sam, who is now 14 months, started with the hellish EW. This coincided with him cutting short his PM nap (from 1.5 hours to 45mins). After posting on BW I was directed to the 2-1 transition and advised to switch the naps around and cap the AM nap at 30 mins around 9.30am and put him down again 3 hours later and let him sleep as long as he wanted.

Now sometimes this worked out ok and he would have an ok PM nap (70 – 110 mins), but quite often he would go on to have a short PM nap (usually 45 mins). Nonetheless, I persevered and things had started to improve slightly, the average wake up time in February for example was 6.30am (I know because I keep a spreadsheet recording this * blush*), which was an improvement on the average in January, which was 5.40am.

In the first 2 weeks of March his average wake up had stretched to 6.50am, we suddenly started getting huge PM naps of 2 – 3 hours and even had a couple of 1 nap days. Hallelujah thought I, we’ve made it! Yeah, not so much. The last 2 weeks we have gone back to square one with average wake up around 5.30am. Naps have gone to hell and even on days when I have decided to leave him at the AM nap, he wakes early. It doesn’t seem to matter how much A time he has right now, he short naps and that is that. I have tried to AP him back to sleep, have sat by the cot for over an hour telling him to lie down, have even got into the cot with him! I have tried early bed to combat OT, but that backfires as often as it helps. I may get a 12 hour night, but I may get less than 11, which is a killer EW!

It doesn’t help that he goes to nursery 2 days a week and they sometimes do really stupid things, like putting him down for another nap maybe only 1 or 2 hours after he woke, which results in 20 min naps. On Thursday he had 50 minutes all day.

I am sick of the 2 -1 and really at my wits end. I have been messing around for nearly 3 months and in the same flipping position as when we began. Part of me wishes I had never started capping his AM nap as I had been pushing it out and he was going down at 10.30 / 11am for 90 – 110 mins, so if I had left it alone we would probably have ditched the PM nap and be there by now … Heigh ho, if wishes were pennies!

Anyway, if you’ve made it this far I offer you my thanks and beseech you - What do I do now?!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs Hun,
the 2-1 can be a right PITA! Can you post yesterdays or today's EaSY including any NW etc so I can see what your day currently looks like.

You may find you can just do the jump to 1 nap with the odd CN thrown in if your LO starts to get a bit OT

[Losh]

Hi there,

Thanks for your reply. The last week has been pretty poor with him only having an average of 80mins total naps each day, so the last few days are not that representative of our normal days ....

Friday

E 05.47
A 05.47 - 09.00
S 09.00 - 09.51 (I decided to leave this nap alone in the hope that he would catch up on some sleep, but he had a short nap anyway)

E 12.00
A 09.51 - 12:51
S 12.51 - 13.25

E 17.00
A 13.25 - 18.27
S 18.27 - 05.22

Yesterday was a complete disaster ...

E 06.00 (he was awake at 05.22 but moaning and groaning in his cot rather than bawling, so I left him to it for a bit)
A 05.22
S 11.25 - 12.02 (this was not intentional, but I had banked on him having a nap in the car on the way to the shops only he had other ideas ...)

E 12.30
A 12.02
S 15.11 - 15.55

E 17.00
A 15.55 - 19.10
S 19.10 - 06.00

Today

E 6.00
A 06.00 - 11:25
S 11:25 - ? (I am not holding out much hope for this one as he nodded off in the buggy on the 5 min walk home earlier and I had to transfer him to his cot)

As you can see, our days are terrible right now and I could just cry as only 2 weeks ago we had the most amazing week ... a little taste of heaven before it all came crashing down!

What I have noticed is that he only seems to average out 11 1/4 hours night sleep, so I really want to get bedtime between 19.15 / 30 in order to achieve this. I had hoped that the clocks going forward last week would help me out with that, but I have been doing EBT after the bad naps, so no further forward there really.

Without tempting fate, I am cautiously happy to say that we do not generally have NW. Since January I have had 2 wakes 45 mins after BT (at which he was easy to resettle) and another 2 later in the night when he was poorly.

When he wakes early you can tell he is trying to go back to sleep as I can hear him lie down and his moans are muffled. Sometimes it all goes quiet for a couple of minutes and I just begin to hope and he starts up again.

It's all very frustrating ....

[Losh]

Well, he ended up surprising me earlier and slept 1hr 37min, so I decided to be brave and make it a 1 nap day, so today looks like this:

E 6.00
A 06.00 - 11:25
S 11:25 - 13.01

E 13.15
A 13.01 - 18.30
E 17.00
S 18.30

I made BT a bit early to avoid the day getting too long, but I am really hoping that doesn't backfire on me! I took him swimming after lunch so with a bit of luck he will be worn out. He feel asleep nursing, but only after a good full feed and he ate a huge tea too, so here's hoping!

[ZacsMumme]

What I have noticed is that he only seems to average out 11 1/4 hours night sleep

This with no NW is great

HUGS - You are definitely in the throws of the 2-1 chaos. Good news is that hopefully with a little plan we can get you and your LO through this without too much pan

What can happen during the 2-1 is that your LO can be ready for the 1 nap days, but not quite cope with the long A times over a period of time, so what happens is you start to get EW/NW or shorter naps as they get cumulated OT.

I ended up having a few rules for myself which worked a treat in the end. They also helped me know what to do if/when things happened that I was getting in a state about.

First I picked a time to start the day (reasonable) and if DS woke before it I kept him in his room. If he fussed too much I went in, but lights stayed out, and interaction was quiet. I did feed early though to pass the time. For us the day started at 6am.
Second I PD for a nap after ~5hrs max from WU of at 11am at the earliest. If your LO is falling asleep at 11.25 but waking after 1.5hrs my guess is its a bit long of an A time and he is OT.
If DS woke before 1pm he got a late PM CN ~4.5hrs later (it was in the car for us) then BT 2hrs later.
If DS woke after 1pm it was BT ~5 hrs after Nap WU
I also tried to APOP DS back to sleep during his nap if he woke less than 1.5hrs into the nap to encourage a longer nap. If he wouldnt sleep I just stayed in the room till 1.5hrs was up.

Usually EBT work well in the 2-1 I wouldnt be afraid to try as early as 6pm, you may just get a 12hr night.

I would certainly have a think about what may work for your LO, and then try to be really consistant with it, consistancy is key in the 2-1, that and preventing to much OT.

[Losh]

Second I PD for a nap after ~5hrs max from WU of at 11am at the earliest. If your LO is falling asleep at 11.25 but waking after 1.5hrs my guess is its a bit long of an A time and he is OT.

Do you mean 5 hrs max from WU OR at 11am earliest? So a 5.30 WU would be 5.5 hr A time until 11am? I struggle badly with A time - I have done 3 hr A first time resulting in anything from 50 mins to 2.5 hr naps, and the same with 2.5 and 4 hr A times, so I get no clear answers as to how much he needs! He is a bit tricky to read too as he copes pretty well with being tired.

If DS woke before 1pm he got a late PM CN ~4.5hrs later (it was in the car for us) then BT 2hrs later.

How long would you do the CN for? I sometimes worry about letting him have too late a nap in case it upsets BT or makes the day really long ...  Also, why 4.5 hrs from WU? Sam would happily go down for another nap 3 hours after a WU from a 90 min nap, so would I not be better off to PD sooner and leave a longer A time to BT?

Usually EBT work well in the 2-1 I wouldnt be afraid to try as early as 6pm, you may just get a 12hr night.

I did PD at 6.10pm last week after a 6.43 WU and just 75 mins naps. He slept 12 hours 20 mins, which was fab! Sadly the worst nap days are nursery days and we don't get home until 17.45, so earliest BT is really 18.30, but with a 6.30 WU and just 50 mins naps, perhaps that is not early enough as he was up at 5.45 the next day?  Nursery also makes consistency hard. They will PD to my schedule, but he often short naps there as there is too much to disturb him, so I tend to let them PD when he seems tired.

I do think I would rather try for the 1 nap and if it's short do a late CN than cap the AM nap, as that can really backfire and leave me wishing I had just let the poor kid sleep in the morning, but it is so difficult to get right as there doesn't seem to be an optimum A time for him. On the plus side he does usually go down like a lamb and STTN, so I know I am faring a lot better than some fellow sufferers!

Thanks for all your help - I will let you know how tomorrow goes and with a bit of luck we will get a WU after 6am. Funny to think that this is now considered a 'good' WU considering he would happily STTN 7pm - 8am at 6 months old ......!

[ZacsMumme]

Do you mean 5 hrs max from WU OR at 11am earliest?

opps typo yes, so if really EW then I tried to keep LO up till as close to 11 as I could. If WU was later than 6 then 5hrs from WU I would PD for nap.

How long would you do the CN for?

30 mins...most Los in the 2-1 can do ~2hrs after a 30min CN during the 2-1 in my experience.

I guess with not knowing A times you will just have to stick with something for a week (or at least 3 days) then re-evaluate.
TBH if he cant cope with 4-4.5hrs between WU/Nap/BT then he isnt really ready for 1 nap. However, some LOs will sleep no matter when you PD - If your LO is like this then you have to keep an eye on the clock AND him (hard aye!)

The fact he STTN and will tack on with EBT is a good sign he is coping with less sleep and can do longer A times. He is at that age where a lot of LOs are ready to make the jump.

[Losh]

TBH if he cant cope with 4-4.5hrs between WU/Nap/BT then he isnt really ready for 1 nap. However, some LOs will sleep no matter when you PD - If your LO is like this then you have to keep an eye on the clock AND him  (hard aye!)

He can cope really well with a long A time - even when he was falling asleep in the shopping trolley the other day he was happy as anything, so I think he will just sleep no matter when he gets PD! Even at nursery he will nap for them after a 2hr A time, so I suppose I will have to go by the clock.

Last night he did 11hrs 52mins and was up at 6.22am, so a fantastic night. I have PD after 4hr 55 and he was very sleepy when I lay him down to get him changed (although he showed zero signs of being sleepy until I picked him up!), but he is coughing in his sleep, so I am not quite sure what we will get ...

Thanks again 

[ZacsMumme]

Good luck for today
Yes if he handles all A times well you may have to try going by the clock to set his body clock and to see how he goes over a period of time

[Losh]

Well, this was yesterday:

E 6.22
A 6.22 - 11.17
S 11.17 - 13.25 BUT he woke after 45 mins, moaned and groaned for 30 mins before going off again, so nap was really 1hr 38

E 13.30
A 13.25 - 16.05
S 16.05 - 16.35 - in the car

E 17.00
A 16.35 - 19.10
S 19.10 - 6.00

Today:

E 6.30
A 6.00 - 10.52
S 10.52 - 11.55 - would not resettle

E 13.00
A 11.55 - 15.05
S 15.05 - 15.50

E 17.00
A 15.50 - ? As he had a shorter night last night I was thinking 18.30, but to be honest I have no idea really.

It doesn't seem like this is working for him so far, but do I stick with it for longer? Am I being unrealistic to expect longer nights? He is at nursery for the next 2 days, so not really sure what schedule I should ask them to stick with .... he is moving up a room next week and most of the babies have 1 nap after lunch, so about 12pm. They will PD at other times but the other babies will be up, so it is a noiser environment, which does not encourage good naps!

[ZacsMumme]

I think he may need a longer A in the morning hence the 45min stirring and also the 1hr WU from the nap on day 2. What do you think?
11hrs is a normal night length really......average toddler sleep is usually around 13hrs in 24 for a lot of LOs (some 14) are you wanting 11.5hr nights?

If you dont want to keep the CN you may need to just do the jump to 1 nap and ride out any OT that comes from it. If you do the ump though you really want your LO to be capable of lasting 5hrs A (Which I think he could) but also napping a solid 2 hrs. ..

[Losh]

I think he may need a longer A in the morning hence the 45min stirring and also the 1hr WU from the nap on day 2. What do you think?

Well he did a 5hr 20min A on the first day, resulting in a 1hr 37min nap - maybe this wasn't overtired and that was all he needed? It's only 20 mins short of the 2hr ideal after all. Having said that, today he did 5hr 10min A and had a 50 min nap .... he had another 50 mins at 3pm and was in bed at 7pm.

are you wanting 11.5hr nights?

Tbh, it's not the length of the night I am fussed on - I just hate early starts! It was different at the end of the year as he was so obviously affected through tiredness, but these days he is very happy with life and the amount of sleep he gets overall seems to suit him and does average around 13 hrs in 24, so I suppose it is about right. It's just the timings that don't suit. In an ideal world I would like WU after 6.30am, nap 12 -2 (ha ha) and BT 7.30pm, but when I have tried to push BT later it sometimes results in a 10.5 hr night, so doesn't really help! I had hoped that the clocks going forward would sort things out, but he had such a bad day I had to put him down at 7pm (old time 6pm). It gave me a 12hr night but didn't help in the long run!

The nap length does get me as I know he can do solid naps of 2+ hours, but maybe I just have to accept that sometimes he will, in which case it can be a 1 nap day, and on the days he short naps he can have another snooze in the PM. Would that have an adverse affect in any way? I see a lot on here that a short A time to BT (which would be the result of a PM nap) can lead to EW too?

[ZacsMumme]

Well he did a 5hr 20min A on the first day, resulting in a 1hr 37min nap

Oh, I must have added that wrong. I though WU was 6.22 and nap 11.17 so ~ 5hrs A?

The nap length does get me as I know he can do solid naps of 2+ hours, but maybe I just have to accept that sometimes he will, in which case it can be a 1 nap day, and on the days he short naps he can have another snooze in the PM. Would that have an adverse affect in any way? I see a lot on here that a short A time to BT (which would be the result of a PM nap) can lead to EW too?

With the 2-1 I found I often needed the odd 2 nap day, or 1/2 naps depended on the WU in the morning or nap length of AM nap IYKWIM. Hence why I made myself little rules. It took Z a good 1.5months to fully move to 1 nap where the 1 nap was consistently 2-3 hrs and the nights were 11hrs+

EW can come about due to a few things, short first or last A can be 1 of them, as can not enough A time during the day or too much day sleep.

[Losh]

Oh, I must have added that wrong. I though WU was 6.22 and nap 11.17 so ~ 5hrs A?

I meant on the first day we tried 1 nap, which was last Sunday. Since then A times have been between 4.50 - 5.10 with the last 2 days resulting in 50 min naps.

EW can come about due to a few things, short first or last A can be 1 of them, as can not enough A time during the day or too much day sleep.

Well, I am pretty sure it is not too much day sleep! As I am increasing the first A that should also be ok, so it is either short last A or OT. I have also been of the opinion OT as when he has done the odd long nap he has usually slept better at night.

Today we had an EW at 5.30am after a BT of 19.30, so a bad night. I put him down at 19:10 and he chatted for 20 mins before going to sleep, which is pretty unusual for him. He woke at 6.20 napped 11.30-12.20 and again 14.30-15.20, so not sure what the problem is with that - I am too tired to figure it out!

[ZacsMumme]

Ahh okay
Those 50 min naps still look UT...but because the nap is short he is OT by BT, or UT possibly if you have 2 naps.

I would try to consistently do an A time of 5hrs or 5.5 if you think he needs longer for a whole week. Then BT 5 hours after the nap. If you get a nap shorter than 1.5 hrs I would try to resettle or off a Cn after ~4.5 hrs A time and B 2.5 hrs later. Really though you want to rid that CN or 2nd nap, I suspect it's causing more issues

Consistancy is key during the 2-1 unfortunately and sticking with something for a week so your LO can adjust.