Dream Feed Causing NW in 5 month old?

[mamatea4]

Hi,
My DD2 is 5 months today.  The best stretch of sleep I've achieved with her is 6 hours between feeds.  She typically wakes at 2:30, I no longer feed her then since she's now on a 4 hour EASY during day & I think she should be able to go longer between feeding at night; I give her a paci & she'll usually sleep for at least another hour, sometimes longer, before I feed her. 

Last week just before I was determined to reprogram her NW by going in 1 hour earlier (like mentioned in BW book) I got 5 nights in a row out of her where she went back to sleep on her own everytime she woke at night  I was so proud!  And then the last several nights have been all over the board with NW (not even her typical 2:30 NW), so I'm not sure the reprogramming would have worked in this case anyway. 

She's not hungry though, just unable to put her self back to sleep.  And then last night she was back to the 2:30 NW.  I'm beginning to think she's becoming accustomed to waking every 4 hours at night, and am wondering if I should stop the DF - here's why:

BT is 7 (I feed her before bed, after bath)
DF is 10 - 10:15 (it was later for a while, but she was waking ever earlier with a later DF) 
NW at 2:30
Feed sometime between 3:30 or 4:30
Day starts again at 7am

**I think a key point here is that I'm unable to give her a true DF.  I BF exclusively (she's never had a bottle) and I'm not able to nurse her without her waking.  She'll go back to sleep, but I'm wondering if that waking a little more than 3 hours after BT is too disruptive for her sleep & is messing up her sleep cycle **

With DD1 I had to supplement BF with formula so she was used to a bottle & for the DF I was able to give her a bottle in her crib w/o waking her & we didn't have this NW issue at this age.

Thanks for the help!  5 months is a long time to go with never getting more than 4/5 hours of sleep at night for myself.

[mamatea4]

So last night DD2 woke every 3 hours from BT - she woke crying about 10:15 (when I normally give DF - I didn't even have a chance to go in there before she woke - as if she knew I was going to come feed her), woke again at 1 (gave paci & went back to sleep till 2) at 2 I went ahead and fed her, woke again at 5 (gave paci & went back to sleep till I got her up at 7am)

Any suggestions anyone??  Does anyone else think the DF is disrupting her sleep cycle??  I don't understand why she rarely puts herself back to sleep with NW's.  She's shown that she's capable, but she's far from consistent, I'm so frustrated!  My DD2 just turned 2, she keeps me busy & I don't get a daytime nap, I really need some sleep at night.  Last night I got 3 hours maybe & even that was spread out, an hour here and there.

Thanks so much.

[Bex09]

Hi there, can I just ask how you know that she isn't hungry when she wakes? It is totally normal for an EBF 5 mo to still need a DF and a NF. So something like DF- 10.30, NF- 2.30 ish, Morning feed - 6.30am. I doubt that the DF would be effecting her sleep at this stage, it is normally around 7 mo that this can start to happen. Does she settle back down quickly after the DF? When it started to disrupt our DD's sleep it was just after the DF that she would be disturbed, so she would keep waking and unable to resettle.

Does your DD need the paci to fall asleep? Does she resettle easily when you replug the paci for the NW? I wonder if this has become a bit of a prop and she is waking needing to be replugged.

[mamatea4]

I don't think it's hunger because there are times when she'll go back to sleep after the 2:30 NW (or earlier) till 4 or 5 am  - then other times not - it's all over the place.  And she's not giving me the hunger cry, more like she's unsettled.  The hunger cry comes usually at 4am or so.  And last night when I did feed her at 2am she still woke at 5 to be resettled & was asleep when I went in at 7 am still.

Usually she'll settle pretty quickly after her DF.

I do wonder about the paci.  I posted in the props topic last month trying to determine that.  But she has such an INTENSE need to suck that I haven't weaned her yet.  She only gets it at nap or BT though.  And last week as I mentioned, she settled several nights in a row without me replugging. 

With these recent NW's or any other time I've gone in at 2:30ish to give her a paci, she'll go right back to sleep . . . and the next NW is not for another 2-3 hours . . .if it had turned into a prop, wouldn't she be waking more often, and not able to go back to sleep at all?  And would it have developed within this last week do you think?

[Bex09]

Really the paci is a prop if your DD can't fall asleep without it. Often LOs will then need it again to resettle but don't necessarily wake when it falls out. Your DD may only needs it if she fully wakes and not just if she comes into lighter sleep.

When your DD has these long NW is she happy or crying/ fussing the whole time? Does your DD fall asleep independently or is she held or rocked to sleep at all? Maybe if you post your EASY for us to look at we can check that there are no tweaks to be made there.

[mamatea4]

During the NW she is usually trying to get herself back to sleep.  It may start out as cooing, then a mantra cry, then it escalates at little till I go in.  I don't take her out of the crib. I give her a paci & leave the room.  However, my policy is to only give it to her one time.  Meaning: if she takes it out or it falls out say 20 min later & she cries for it, I go in & shh/pat till she goes back to sleep - but that isn't usually a problem.  And when I put her to bed, she's still awake.  Most nights she falls to sleep within 5 to 10 min, the same after a NF.  I've watched her suck on the paci for about 5 min, pull it out & go to sleep.  Other times it'll still be in her mouth an hour later! (How she manages to keep it in her mouth, I don't know)

So last night: BT 7:15, DF 10:15 resettled quickly, slept until 3:45am Yay! I fed her & then it took little longer than usual for her to go back to sleep (maybe 20 min) but that may have been because the night light was turned up too far & stimulated her a little too much? She slept then until about 5:30-6am, but resettled herself on own  & I woke her when I went in to feed her at 7am.

Overall a good night, and I hope it continues.

Other than my question about the DF disrupting her sleep, the only other thing I could think of was her own gained mobility.  Tracy talked in her book about how at this age when they start to gain mobility they get these electrical pulses in their muscles that can keep them restless in addition to the fact that they are finding themselves in different places in their crib when they wake, which unsettles them.  (I just refreshed myself on that info last night)

I didn't think about the mobility issue earlier because she's not really rolling around.  But in the last week or so she has become very proficient at turning herself 180 degrees in either direction.  So maybe that's contributing more than I realized?  Any suggestions on how to combat that or do you just have to wait it out while they teach themselves how to go back to sleep?

Oh, and here's my schedule:

7am BF
9-10:30 or 11 Nap  (with a 10 min wind down prior - she's weaned of her swaddle for about 3 weeks now & doing well)  As mentioned earlier, I put her down awake & she's off to sleep in about 5 min
11am BF
1 or 1:15 - 3:00 Nap
3pm BF
5-5:30 CN
6:20 Bath & BT routine
6:45 BF
7 or 7:15 BT
10 or 10:15 DF
sometime after 3 am I'll do a NF -- but most nights they'll be an earlier NW as mentioned  -- and alot of times a NW at 5-6 am but she resettles on own better during that one
7am start day over

[Bex09]

Hi, how are things going? Have your nights got any better?

Your EASY looks great, so I certainly don't think that is the issue. It does sound like your DD is still learning to resettle herself when she wakes in the night, great that she is managing to do it sometimes. As for the developmental issues, like moving around the cot, etc then yes they really can disturb sleep. Some LOs suffer more than others with this, my DD used to be effected quite badly with developmental sleep issues, especially mobility ones. For us they usually lasted about a week and loads of practising the skill in the day helped.

[mamatea4]

Unfortunately, after last post - DD had a bad night (up every 2 hours & unsuccessful shh/pat from 5:45am to 6:45 am till I fed her for start of day). 

Last night also bad.  She went to sleep w/o paci after DF (took about 10 min of cooing first) yay! But then woke 1 hour later.  The remainder of night was every 2 hours until I fed her then she slept 3 hours, resettled herself & slept another 1/2 hour till I started her day.

Both nights I know she was excessively OT since we had special church activities this week.  Normally I'm very careful about keeping her on a good, restful schedule.

I posted questions in PROP thread about weaning from paci and/or a safe crib alternative -- any suggestions from readers here would be helpful as well.

I'm happy that she sometimes will put herself to sleep w/o a paci & sometimes resettle w/o one, but regretfully that is not the norm right now. 

I'm not sure whether to let it go & just deal with mobility issues as well as keeping her from getting OT, as these two things have a significant impact on her sleep (if she's OT it is next to impossible for her to sleep w/o paci -- otherwise we have a fighting chance )  Or am I better off taking the paci away right now regardless of the other issues?  I have a 26 month old also so sleep training is more difficult now than when there was just one, but I'm not sure which avenue will afford me the better sleep.

[Bex09]

My initial thoughts when reading this most recent post was that the paci seems to be a prop. I do wonder if there is some confussion for your DD because you replug sometimes but not others yk? I think it would be best to either decide to wean full stop or decide to ride out the replugging until she can replug herself. My DD was about 6 mo when she could replug her paci and we practised loads in the day to help. Will take a look at your prop post now.

[babymunkey]

Back another time - 1 handed typing doing DF, but reading along as we have some similar issues - I've weaned the dummy to rule it out though - I agree with pps, I'd start with that.

[mamatea4]

Appreciate the replies & the advice.  I definitely don't want to confuse DD by the manner in which I give her a paci or not! 

I guess my reasoning has been that I don't want to give her a paci if she's not "asking" for it.  And usually after a DF or NF w/all that sucking, she doesn't always need a paci.  But other sleep times she does seem to have a greater need to suck since she hasn't just nursed.  Does that make sense?

I'm confused though because my understanding from Tracy's books is that a baby may wake at night or early from a nap needing to suck for comfort & that it's ok to give baby a paci in this case (even as part of pu/pd), but if they cry or wake every time it falls out at stage 3 sleep (@ 20 min) then she advises not to keep putting it back in their mouth as it will now become a prop & to use another means of comfort at that point.  And otherwise, it is good to use a paci up to 3/4 months or even later if it's only at sleeptime.  Do I not have this right

I thought I was sticking w/that method, other than not putting the paci back more than once at each NW or at the 45 min nap transition mark -- that variation on my part is due to being conflicted about the paci, not wanting it to be a prop  -- is that making the situation worse dyt?

My feeling is that I (1) need to address mobility issues as suggested w/more practice time during the day (2) be extra careful to guard against OT.  And I think that will greatly reduce NW.  Then I (3) need to be prepared to replug for the times she does have NW's until she can do it herself -- continuing to have her practice that during the day as well as getting more proficient with her fingers too.

If that approach doesn't work after giving it a week, I will probably wean cold turkey from the paci w/ Tracy's pu/pd geared specifically for the 5/6 month old.  What do you guy's think?

Although, I have to admit ladies, there is a small part of me that still wonders if the DF might be contributing   If you could see how peacefully she's sleeping when I go in for DF as opposed to how she has to work to put herself back to sleep!  Granted, she resettles pretty quickly, in about 20 min, but not without some head twisting & pounding legs up & down on mattress.  If my sleep were interrupted like that, I know I would have trouble sleeping as deeply afterward.  I guess I just have to remind myself that babies don't sleep like adults, right?

Watch, as soon I figure this out, she'll have a whole new issue w/ teething or a gs!  

[Bex09]

Hi, yes your plan sounds good and you are right about the paci. From your original post it sounded like you would only replug once even if DD was waking and crying for the paci, not that she didn't actually want it. Sorry, my misunderstanding there. If she doesn't want it then great and use shush/pat or a hand on her to settle her instead.

If you are still concerned about the DF then you could trial stopping it and see how that goes. I think that you will get another wu (maybe around midnight) for a NF but you may prefer that and find it is less disturbing for your DD. She may of course surprise us and sleep through a longer stretch.

[mamatea4]

UPDATE:

Well it's been a month since my original post - DD2 is 6 months old today.  And in case anybody was following this thread, or if anybody needs encouragement/reminder that our LO's "grow" out of some so called problems as the develop and mature, I just wanted to post an update:

So I've kept a log over the last month, to chronicle her sleep patterns for nap and BT & anything that may have been affecting it.  

Week 1 after original post - we had a couple terrible nights with multiple NW & one NF, a few typical ok nights, with one NW & an one NF, and a couple good nights where she only woke for the one feed

Week 2 - slight improvement since the multiple NW decreased to about 2 or 3/night (including NF), but she started settling herself when she'd wake at night, and we still had the NF sometime between 2-4 am

Week 3 - Had a first STTN   and rest of nights the NF getting later more consistently, plus getting better with finding paci

Week 4 - She's had 3 nights since Friday where she's SSTN!!!   and almost always able to get paci in mouth if really wants it

I didn't make that many adjustments other than making sure she has had the time to practice her new skills during the day.  And making sure her A time is right during the day as well.  Additionally, I started giving her a 'lovey' that she likes to rest her cheek against and putting her in the crib at somewhat of a diagonal to keep her from moving as much.  BTW, we just started solids last week; and I've been pumping (I had stomach flu & started my period all within this last month which changed BM production, therefore pumping), the added food may or may not be a contributing factor.  But more than anything, I thing it's been the age old tincture of time that's been helping.

I'm so excited with the progress that I just had to share the good news.  Even if we have some setbacks over the next week or so, I've had that boost to help keep me going over the next hurdle.  And with the extra sleep I can enjoy my two girls better now.  

Oh, and I never did cut out the DF.  There were two nights I was going to try, but she woke both those times at the time for the DF, so I gave up on that. 

[Bex09]

Yay what a great update! Thanks for taking the time to let us know how things are going. So glad that you have seen such a huge improvement.