2 months of 2hr NW & no improvement - in a right muddle!!

[Lou'sMum]

This is really an update from the post below, but nothing we are doing seems to be working and desperately looking for some fresh eyes.

24mths - terrible NW... AGAIN! Is it SA or routine tweak? (sorry don't kno9w how to post a link!)

We are getting an average of 2 nights a week where 26mth old LO sleeps through the night. The NW have changed a little in that they used to be from 1.30-3.30, but have moved forward to around midnight the past couple of weeks. Wakes with a cry and I go in and settle, tell him it's sleepy time and mummy is going back to bed. He usually asks me to sit at the door (i stand BEHIND the closed door at BT for 30 seconds then go downstairs) which I do and usually he will lie there for a couple of mins but will bounce back up and just start shouting on me or DH. No crying, just shouting. Since he isn't crying I have left him but he will keep going for hours and eventually starts crying, but more annoyed than anything else, and no-one gets any sleep. So I will wait a while then go and repeat sleepytime etc. This too goes on for 1.5-2 hrs.

DH has resorted to sleeping on the floor in LOs room after a while because we are so exhausted. I'm 5 months pregnant (just realised I put 6 on my 1st post, wishfull thiking and sleep deprivation!) and gettingreally worried we wont get this sorted before the new baby arrives.

I tried to introduce a sticker reward chart and prizes for clever boys who sleep thru the night but it doesn't seem to be working. He has woke up a few times shouting for his 'prize' at 1.30am though. I know he is young, but i've tried to talk to him in the morning and find out if he had a sore tummy, teeth, is scared, wants a cuddle... anything! But he kind of shrugs and says no, or burys his face away (I do tell him i'm not angry when I say this, even though I kinda am!) I have tired him out at the park in the morning and afternoon and there doesn't seem to be any pattern to it. I tried meds before bed for a week but this made no difference so don't give them unnecessarily.

Before all this kicked off he was getting (average) 11 hrs a night and 1.5 hrs nap, and we are nowhere near than now. He does tend to sleep better when we put him down early say 6-6.30, but i'm then confused about what naps to give. Even before this I had to wake him from naps and I had tried cutting his nap to 1 hr to see if that would help with the nights, but he just gets up in a foul mood so think I should go back to 1.5hrs?

Last night was a bit different in that I let him sleep in the afternoon for as long as he needed without waking him and he had about 1h45m. Then BT was 7.15 and he went down no problem. BUT he woke at 10.30, i went and settled and he did go back to sleep but up at 4.30 and DH lay on the floor at 5 but don't think LO went back to sleep.

I'm just wondering where to begin getting this sorted? It's really getting us all down and i'm getting quite upset with it all - feels quite hopeless.

If anyone had any suggestions i'd be so grateful to her them! Thanks. x

[*Becky*]

Hi,
Can you post your current routine for me to have a look.
Is he teething?
Do you use a Gro Clock?
xx

[Tweakster]

Yes if we can see the routine currently we can help I think.  At first glance, I'd suggest he's a bit UT at night, simply because he's not crying or disoriented but simply wants some social companionship and he's only yelling.  How much does he understand about the new baby?  Remember your body is changing and he can sense this.  Is there a lot of talk about big brother and all that?  He might be getting some SA related to the new arrival.

How long have you given the shorter nap early bedtime scenario a try??

[Lou'sMum]

Hi ladies, thanks for replying.

I'm finding it hard to actually have a typical day just now . I guess if he's up at 6.30 (average) it would be:

wake - 6.30
nap - 12.30-1.30
bt - 6.30-6.45
Then approx 2 hrs of NW. No matter how long he's up at night we are up before 7am LATEST.

I cut his nap maybe 5 weeks ago and only really do the early bt if we've had a rough night, should I keep this up for a good few nights? It takes absolutely AGES to wake him from his nap, even when he had 1.5hrs. Things have got worse since we started cutting the nap and the NW have shifted in time from 1.30ish to before midnight. Last night was 9.45, night before was 10.30. Is there any significance in that you think?

I'm just not sure re UT. Before he was getting about 12.5 hrs in a day, can his sleep needs drop so drastically?? Also, if DH sleeps on the floor, he's out like a light most times, not really wanting to play. He just wants to know you are there.

I did think I could see some whiteness where the last molars should be coming in so do think he is teething, but had been medicating for a while and it wasn't helping. I don't like to give him meds just for the sake of it iykwim??

As far as they new baby goes, we do talk about it but not all the time - should I be doing this more? When I do mention it, he doesn't seem so interested really! He loves to read, so maybe I could get a book about being a big bro or something, include him a bit more? I have a scan next week and thought id take him along, you think this kinda thing would help?

You know, I did think it could be SA, but not sure how to tackle this with a 2yo - any tips hugely welcome. When he's shouting at night, should I go in or just when he gets to the point of being upset iykwim?

And finally...! I had thought about a groclock, but not sure if he was old enough to get it. Have any of you had a good response from it?

TBH DH has had enough (cant blame him really) and has decided to sleep on the floor for a week or so for us all to get a bit of sleep. We are all so tired and don't have energy to focus just now. God knows if were going to make it worse but we just need some sleep!

I'd love to have a plan in place for then and be doing other stuff too to maybe make it easier.

Thanks again for taking the time to help.

x

[*Becky*]

It sounds like there is quite a bit going on, teeth, pregnancy, SA etc. FWIW we had a big sleep regression at 2 but it did sort itself out within about 4 weeks.

I never had much luck nap capping when DS was teething.

I will try and answer your questions..
Early NWings i.e. before midnight are usually OT or discomfort. Do you give meds at bedtime?
IMO sleep needs do not tend to drop drastically. When it did here it was usually OT tbh. If he sleeps when your DH is there it really does sound like SA. I found SA tended to accompany teeth.

I made very little of my pregnancy tbh until I was pretty big. 9 months is a very long time for a lo. However if he can see your body is changing it may be worth getting a book about having a baby and read it to him. If he is particularly interested then it 'could' be part of the problem. I never took DS to the scans but that is a personal choice.

With the NWings I would only go in when/if he is properly upset. Shouting etc is IMO not the same. Does he have a lovey??

Gro-clock - love them! Life saver in this house so yes I would recommend one.

Ok well my advice would be to medicate before bed. If he wakes in the early part of the evening then it is likely SA or OT. You can then rule out pain. I always find nurofen to be the most effective.

I would allow more than an hour nap tbh. Maybe cap at 1.5 and see if that helps.

As for the SA I would choose a method you feel comfortable with i.e. WIWO or GW and stick with it. Consistency is key at this age.

Keep me posted xx

[Lou'sMum]

Hi Becky,

Thanks for your super detailed reply! It's really helpful to get another opinion on whats going on - I dont think we can see clearly just now.

LO stayed with my mum last night, and was up at 3 this time, after a really short nap @ 45mins and later BT at 7.45. She just doesn't 'get' the whole OT idea and fights routine more than a LO . When he stays with her I try to just write it off and start again next day. Heart in the right place but just totally different ideas. Probably doesn't help that me and my sister slept like logs from the get go, so can't understand what we're going thru. Anyway... i digress!

LO is in bed now but I didn't give meds. If he wakes us i'll give them then and see if it helps. I just feel bad giving him stuff if it doesn't seem to help. Will defo give it a go tho. When I think back, LO has always been a bad teether and things went haywire at nights/am when they were coming in, but it just seems to be lasting for so long this time.

Just wondered what my day SHOULD really be looking like? What routine should I be aiming for? If LO is up at 6.30 say, would I nap 12.30-2 then BT at 7.30?

As far as the NW goes, what do I do? If he just shouts and I don't go in will that not make SA worse iykwim? He does have a blanket and a dummy but we have a few spare in the cot and he does plug himself back in.

WIWO doesn't seems to work with LO, not sure if he finds it too stimulating or something but just makes him mad. We've had success in past with GW, but i've already got to outside the closed door (have to tell him i'll sit behind the door for a minute when I put him down) so what do I do? Would I go in and resettle him then go sit outsuide the door and talk to him from there?

I've already ordered the gro-clock, hopefully arriving on Monday. Fingers crossed it helps us as it has you!

LO is still in a cot-bed, and DH wondered if we should take the sides of for a BB bed. Part of me thinks it might be an idea and the other pasrt of me thinks things are bad enough and it could go horribly wrong... any ideas there??? He never seems to bother being in the cot really...

Well DH still insisting on kipping on the floor if LO wakes for a few nights so we can all get some sleep and i'm not arguing. It's always been me who does any of the night duty as DH doesn't have the staying power to keep at it so I need my rest for starting over again.

Thanks again becky. btw, love that pic of your wee one - gorgeous!
x

[*Becky*]

Oh I know, tell me about it. My mum is the same and just does her own thing. Maddening but occasionally we just put up with it!

Does he have all teeth apart from 2 year molars? I know what you mean about meds and I feel the same. Have you tried any homeopathic remedies at all?

At that age we were doing
A - 6.30am
S - 12.30-2.15pm
Bedtime - 7-7.30pm

If he is doing a 1.5 nap and up at 6.30am I would try and have him asleep by 7pm.

My feeling is that it is better to not go in unless lo is distressed i.e. they really need you yk? Obviously if it goes on and on and on then you may need to intervene but this is a tricky age. If you do go in, keep everything VERY low key. No talking etc and little contact as this is not social time. These toddlers are clever and there is a big difference between leaving them to cry and going in at the first shout or two.

Yes if he gets upset you can go back in and re settle so it is a bit of a mix between WIWO and GW. If he responds to you being outside the door then I would try and stay there as much as you can.

Re the bed. I would def not remove the bars.......get sleep back on track first. He is still young. We put DS in a BBB when he was 2.5 and only because we needed the cot for DD.

[Lou'sMum]

Cheers becky, we had a good night last night and keeping everything crossed for another good night. He did wake at 3 but managed to settle himself - which is a first for absolutely ages!

That was after a 1.5 hr nap and bt of 7.30. He was up at 6.30 (almost on the button every time - scary!) so we had 1.5 nap at 12.30 then sleeping for 7.30 again.

Just realised i've completely forgot to mention that LO used to suffer from reflux. Been med free for 9 months and was doing ok with the odd hiccup (no pun intended), but i'm wondering if we are having a bad flare up. Teething makes it all worse so could be another thing to add to the mix. Se paed in a couple of weeks so will see what he thinks.

x

[*Becky*]

sounds much better. I would keep the nap at 1.5 for now.
yes teeth does make reflux worse - keep me posted xx

[Lou'sMum]

Well, found some jaggy ridges of a 2nd year molar last night and another bulging through. Can these teeth really cause so much distress.

I actually think we were getting a reflux flare up too, LO had been eating loads of oranges (really loves them for some reason) and I think thats upset the acid balance in his tummy along with the teeth. So... i've completely cut them from his diet and so far this week, he's been sttn 5 nights in a row! How terrible do I feel that I was probably giving his something that was hurting. .

Thanks for your support Becky, hopefully we're on the way up for now.... till the new one arrives and all hell brakes loose... I am wondering how I will cope with 2!

x

[*Becky*]

hope it continues xxx