How do I drop a habitual NF!?

[lil_ginge]

Hi peeps.

So - 6 month old DD has had a rough couple of months. She had green poo for 16 days meaning she didn't have any weight gain - then she had a bad cold - then teething.

All of which I was concerned she wasn't getting enough milk. When she woke in pain - she seemed to want feeding. Because she couldn't breath/had stopped gaining weight/seemed uncomfortable while teething so I thought didn't take as much - I gave her milk most times when she was waking in the evening.

This all came a bit after she started EWings...(between 4.30 - 6.30... ) before all this she was sttn from 7pm + DF since 10ish weeks(!)

When the NW's started they were irratic and not every night. I didn't need to feed her every time either - now she wakes (last couple days) between 2-2.30 for a feed. We are guessing it is habitual. Last night DH tried to see if he could comfort her without getting me. (We have a flat with really REALLY poor sound proofing so the lil 1 yr old upstairs and his mum wake when our DD wakes so we had put this off for their sake.)

1 hr 50 mins later - a screaming baby. Calpol didn't help (incase she still feels pain from teething - we can't see any more coming but she is acting like they are! Content during day though...) Water didn't help. Daddy's arms didn't help. P/SShh didn't help.
- I fed her.

I have read that if you're formula feeding there is a gentler way than going 'cold turkey' in which you dilute the feed down every evening till they can't be bothered to wake anymore! I saw somewhere on here - the suggestion for BFing Mum's to do a similar thing with minutes. How do I do it?! Has it worked for anyone?! What if after a few mins on (She is so efficient she only takes 5-7 mins anyway) she then screams for more!?

A sideline to this is the HV. Today she said that - she didn't need that feed (which is what I agree with!). In order to help her to sleep she said up the carbs in her diet so she'll sleep through. She even suggested porridge before bed.

I am just so confused. Fiver posted a link last week about kellymom's article on iron etc - but the link doesn't work when I go to it! (probably my bad!) The BW mentality is "food before one is just for fun" - where is this coming from because my HV's just seem to say how important 3 meals a day are and with the added comment of upping the carbs... I AM CONFUSED AND TIRED AND CLUELESS!

She said after nearly 2 hours of trying last night - DD has cottoned on and knows how to play us on the whole getting a feed thing. She said "You don't need to feed her to comfort her"! - I am sure this is true but after almost 2 hours of trying I wold love to know if there's a better way forward.

Sorry - really sorry to ramble. I would appreciate wisdom on how to help the AP ...

Other notes:
Her A time (which I thought was the issue back when NW, EW started - ) have now got to a great 2.45 - 3 hr depending on day!
She has 4 hrly BFs (but they're stretching with nap, solid, A time) and a DF at 10.30!
Could the DF be disrupting sleep!?

[Erin M]

A couple of thoughts:
If the DF hasn't disrupted her sleep yet, it probably isn't now. 
There's a growth spurt around 6 months, have you hit that yet?  That might explain some of your issues.  2 nights isn't really enough to be a habit yet, that might be waking out of genuine need.  Will she settle right back to sleep after a feed?  My dd2 and ds both needed night feeds until close to a year and I found that if they took big full feeds and settled right back to sleep after, then they were only waking up for hunger -- if, after the feed, they still had trouble settling, then I would look for other reasons for waking. 

The "upping carbs" thing sounds weird.  Honestly, if anything would make her be settled for longer, it would be some good fats, like avocados.  However, nutritionally speaking, breast milk has more fat and calories ounce for ounce than any food you'd feed her anyway. 

If you feel that it truly is a habitual waking, there are some good tips here on how to address it:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=213387.0

[Buntybear]

Hi, how long is it now that you have been feeding at night?  There is a growth spurt at 6 months and it could well be that.

Your HV is pushing for 3 meals and more carbs at 6 months??  Milk is a nutrionally complete meal and has more calories than the small amounts of food she would be ingesting at 6 months.

The iron thing is that babies natural stores deplete around 6 months - as I understood it that is why it is recommneded that meats can be introduced around that age.

[lil_ginge]

Hi Erin

Well she had an absolutely MASSIVE growth spurt at 4 months so for some reason I didn't think we would hit a 6 monther hard. When she is on the breast during the day - she is more interested in other things so isn't on for long at all. Usually, when she's on a GS - she comes off and frantically comes back for more - or arches back at me to say "NOooooooo don't take me offffff yettttt!?!?!?" Lately, she will sit herself up and play with the sofa throw rather than come back for more! She's very stressy atm about getting it at 4 hours but when she is on it's like "O not a big deal after all!"

Hmm. Yes, I am confused about if it actually is a habitual waking. I suppose because she WAS sleeping through the night for such a long time very happily. (MONTHS!) Then the last month and a half has seen many NW's for different reasons so when they started to be less "all over the place" and more consistent I was concerned. They used to hit the 4 am mark too...

Will she settle right back to sleep after a feed?

Well, yes - almost always! But she has always taken a full feed whenever. Infact - at the beginning she would chunk down extra feeds when I was feeding on demand and misreading coliccy cries for hunger then projectile it all up. Also, when she had the 16 day poo-a-thon that was because she continued to take both breasts after her major GS and was getting too much foremilk. (well - atleast that's what I thought it was because when I went back to one breast it stopped!)

Yea... carbs thing was weird to hear. But then I keep getting so many mixed messages from the HVs!

[lil_ginge]

Hi, how long is it now that you have been feeding at night?  There is a growth spurt at 6 months and it could well be that.

Buntybear - thanks for asking. Well, on and off for the last month and a half due to the different medical things that were happening at the time. It wasn't every night - sometimes she would settle without, but it's become more and more frequent! Infact - sometimes when you work out if she's woken twice it's almost like she's doing a '4 hourly schedule' through the eve too! So, when she had a cold if she woke I fed her extra if she seemed distressed (and was signalling for grub) because I thought "O she prob couldn't breath and take as much in". When she was teething really bad I gave her a NF or three as she seemed to not be taking as much from my left side due to it hurting her...

This is why I am concerned that dodgy patterns have occured. I really was worried about AP'ing but it's been one thing after another and with the EWing too... We are so tired after she slept so well before!

[lil_ginge]

P.S. If they're having a GS - can they take in alot more solids as well?

Just... yesterday she ate loads of rice and pear for brekky one hour after her morning BF - then later that day she had a big roast potato.. a slither of chicken and a carrot baton (which I thought was pretty good going for only having started food for 2 weeks ... she ate this without help!)

Then this morning she downed loads of banana and apple grated and this eve ate her way through most of a one egg + potato omelette. This was 1 1/2 hour after nursing then she had another BF top up after this before bed.

O man. GROWTH SPURT!?!? AGAIN!?!? No WAY!?

[Buntybear]

Our 4 month GS lasted till 6 month and beyond! Nightmare! We also had NFs until around 1. Personally I believe it is just someting you have to live with if you choose to BF - not everyone will agree - plus we had food issues and so it was a sacrifice I chose to make.

Anyway, I digress! If she is less interested in the day as she becomes more aware and interested in what is going on around her it could be she is making up calories at night? Maybe someone more expereinced could advise better

Ah - you have just posted about solids - I was going to ask!

That seems like A LOT Of solids for a 6 month old.. Is she just 6 months? When did you wean?

[lil_ginge]

Sacrifice... exactly! I am trying to work out what is a healthy and right sacrifice while I am bf'ing and what is actually a habit that I have fostered due to AP. Hmmffff.

- Go buntybear - carrying on with the food allergies too. *high five*

Weaned 3 weeks ago... she wasn't taking this much at all till now! A couple of tea spoons (until the teething stopped spoon strike!) Then went more BLW... and because it is BL(!) I thought - that seems alot but SHE is the one picking it up and chomping it down! I don't know what is 'too much' as every baby we are around seems to take such different amounts. My nephew woofted down LOADS of solids and still had huge milk feeds!

[lil_ginge]

p.s. oops - when i say BLW... We have used a spoon for the breakfasts the last two days but are ever so careful not to give her any unless she is leaning forward with her mouth gaping and her eyes screaming "MORE MUMMY MORRRRRE!" (Therefore, this isn't classicly BLW so I apologize - it's some weird combo)

[Buntybear]

I think the increase in solids and milk at night would point towards a growth spurt? My only other thought would be that she filling up too much on the solids and so needing the extra calories at night though BM?

[lil_ginge]

thanks buntybear.

so a plan of action: do you think i should try w2s to see if it makes any difference? Then tomorrow try going for a 3 and a half hour feed time? make sure i definately TU before bed?

would this make sense of if she wakes at 4 or 5 and i feed her that she actually then goes back to sleep better than ew!?

I think i would feel more comfortable if i eliminated hunger as the issue before trying to correct accidental parenting. Just have the guilt thing, "The longer i bfax at night the longer i an affirming a prop!"

Thanks so much mods for your help again. I know i was only here last week but your support is so appreciated when Dh and i are so confused (and cream crackered!)

[Fiver]

Agree with PPs - there's a GS at 6m and this sounds just like it.  Often BF babies will wake for a feed at night up to 1y (and sometimes beyond).  With the greatest respect, your HV doesn't live with you or know your baby like you do.  It's not up to her/him to say whether another person "needs" a NF (I wouldn't want a HV telling me I wasn't allowed a drink of water in the night if I was thirsty, for instance).  It also sounds like (s)he isn't up to date on current guidance regarding BF or weaning.

I'll try reposting the iron info - hopefully it will work this time - http://kellymom.com/nutrition/vitamins/iron/

[lil_ginge]

thanks fiver - link worked! v insightful.

on bf bubbas often needing an extra feed for a yr - did your LOs ever sttn? Autumn did happily from 10 wks - 4/5 months (when some nws started!)

[lil_ginge]

Also on hv front. No i am not offended ... actually after finding out my sis in law was told absolutely solids first then milk by one hv
 - then a friend in the same area was told defo milk first....i have come to realise i need to have more confidence in what I feel dd needs.

Being a FTM I didnt realise how many opinions i would get and i have found it utterly overwhelming. I don't want to fall into a AP cycle but i also want to listen to whats really happening.

Ha ... ! Every Mothers dilemna I am sure!

[Fiver]

Yes indeed, it's a tough one, but what I've done is try to take the advice and then make my decision about which way I'm going to go based on DD/DS.

As for the STTN, yes, my DD STTN for a couple of weeks around 9-10w and then it all went a bit pear shaped when she got the 4m GS/sleep regression.
At 16m, she's getting much better at doing so now and we haven't really done anything much to promote that, just gone with her.