Is this night feed habitual??

[brummum]

Hi, I posted here a little while ago re: multiple night wakings. We have since weaned the dummy and this has really improved matters. However, there are a couple of things I would still like to iron out. LO is now goes to sleep at 7:00 and is only waking at around 10:30 - 11:00 and 2:30 - 3:00 for feeds. He then wakes at 5ish at which time I do not feed as I don't think he can be hungry after that amount of time (he can go 3.5 - 4 hrs between feeds during the day) instead I ssshpat and can usually get him back to sleep. He is then up for the day at anywhere between 6:15 and 7:00.

My queries are this:
Why might he still be waking at 5 repeatedly (I have been using sshpat at this waking for a while now)?
Could the 2:30-3:00 feed be habitual (I have no problem feeding him at this time and he usually takes most of 7oz but his wake up is different - he is not crying to be fed, more frustrated shouting and when I go to him  - only when it's obviously he isn't settling back to sleep - he smiles at me like he wants to play! He is also getting increasingly less interested in his first feed of the day at 7am)?

Thanks!

[Ima shel Alon]

Usually NW that are happy ones are caused by being UT during the day or getting too much day sleep.
Would you like to post how your day looks like and we can have a look if more A is what you need.
I could be that the 3AM NW is habitual, you can have a look here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=213387.0 and maybe try and think of doing W2S. The 5AM could also be habitual, or maybe the light in the room is different and he is waking up...

[GemmaD]

Hi this could have been written by me my boys are also waking at 3every night and also now at 5ish and don't want a 7 feed! so will be interested to know what you decide to do and if it works. Think I am going to try w2s for the 3am wake up and see how it goes I'm fairly sure it's a habit but they could prove me wrong lol
I've also now got some blackout blinds!!

Good luck

[brummum]

Thanks for response. Would really appreciate it if you could look over yesterdays EASY and see what you think (this is a fairly typical day).

Wake: 6:30
Eat: 7:00 (5oz)
Activity: 7:20 - 9:00
Sleep: 9:00 - 10:00 (at home in cot)
Activity: 10:00 - 11:00
Eat: 11:00 (7oz)
Activity 11:20 - 12:00
Sleep: 12:00 - 2:00 (in buggy)
Activity: 2:00 - 3:00
Eat: 3:00 (7oz)
Activity: 3:20 - 4:00
Sleep: 4:00 - 5:00 (in car seat)
Activity: 5:00 - 6:30
Eat: 6:30 (7oz)
Sleep (bedtime): 7:00
Eat: 11:15 (7oz) - wakes up for feed NOT dream feed
Eat: 3:20 (7oz)
NW: 5:00 - sshpat to sleep
Wake: 6:30

We are close to a 4hr EASY but some days he only manages 3.5 - 3.75hrs between feeds, also tends to need them closer together as day progresses for some reason. We have black out blinds so pretty sure that lighting in room isn't the issue. The other thing I should have mentioned was that when he wakes at 5 he always has his eyes shut so not sure he is fully awake but is crying. Sshpat works quite quickly to resettle him.

[brummum]

sorry, i made a mistake there, the morning A was 2 hours not 2.5 (6:30 - 8:30). Went down for nap at half 8 not 9.

[Ima shel Alon]

How old is he?

[brummum]

sorry, he is 16 nearly 17 weeks

[Ima shel Alon]

Ok, your EASY looks quite good, especially because you were out and he was sleeping 2 hours in the buggy. IIWY I would try to have a full A before going out if you know that he is falling asleep, so you know he is not UT - that can also cause NW, but happy ones, not with eyes shut. Just a thought for the future.
It could be habitual, did you used to feed at this time?
You could try W2S - you go in an hour before, so 4AM, you stroke him and see that he stirs, and then leave the room. That suppose to make him start a new sleep cycle. You can have a read about it here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=213387.0
Like I said, I can't see something in your EASY that might cause it, it looks like you are doing great!

[brummum]

okay so the situation has now changed slightly (doesn't it always?!). He is now waking at 11:30/12ish for a feed (still undecided about resuming dream feed) and for last 2 nights has slept through til 5am (wooooo hoooo!) at which point he wakes reasonably happy and has a party in his cot. Now the first night I left him as he was not crying and didn't appear to want anything but he did not put himself to sleep until eventually hubby went in and sshpatted at 6ish. This morning he woke up at 5 again and I decided to try feeding him but he only took 2 ounces and feel asleep on bottle (oopps!) however, woke up as soon as I winded him and put him back in cot, so he has been awake since 5ish with a quick nod off on bottle!
I know happy wakings are usually UT but really don't think this is the case. All A times yesterday were 2hrs or over and the day before he managed about 3hr naps in total. Thought about understimulation instead but yesterday was quite a stimulating day (bumps and babies then afternoon at grandparents) so don't think it was that either! Any ideas greatly appreciated!

[brummum]

PS you don't think this could be really early 3-2 transition time? surely not??! He is handling 2hr+ activity time really well. Possibly low sleep needs?? In which case am I stuck with 5am waking for life?!!

[brummum]

One last piece of info - don't know if it's relevant. yesterday morning after the 5am wake up his first nap was 2hrs (absolutely unheard of!) and the same thing appears to have happened today (1:45 and counting). Not sure what this all means. Is he tacking on night sleep to first nap??

[Ima shel Alon]

Well, 2 hours nap in the morning is very good, but I do have the feeling he is making up for the night's sleep.
It could be that he is low sleep needs, but I don't think so... just a feeling. I would rather say he is high with his As. I would try and push them a little bit more.
What is his A time before BT?
Is something different in the room at 5AM? Does light go in? Anyone getting ready for work? The room is getting colder? Don't know if it's still cold in the UK...

[brummum]

ruled out all environmental stuff, black out blinds, temp the same (checked monitor), woke up early to see if there were any notable sounds about that time and there was nothing I could pin point! His A before bed has been about 2 hours as starts to get cranky at that time but have pushed it to 2.25 today. Would you recommend doing that for a few days to establish if there is any effect?

[Ima shel Alon]

Yes, I would, and if that doesn't work then your next step would be to shorten it (more than back), so less than 2 hours. I know it sounds very little, but some babies (mine was like that) couldn't handle a normal A before bed. I could put him 1h after waking from a nap and he would go to sleep for the night.

[brummum]

Okay so I have done 2.25hr A before bed for the last 3 nights and each time he has ended up screaming the house down for 20mins following his feed (usually has story after this then goes down in cot and settles self sometimes without intervention but most a little sshpat) so thinking OT? Have medicated also incase he is in pain with teething or jabs (yesterday - but never usually causes him a problem and did this the night before also) but that didn't help tonight. The 2.25 A time before bed also didn't appear to have any effect on his NW. So gonna do your suggestion of bringing in his A time - would you suggest 1.75hr to start with?
Also I don't know if this is something you could help with - his feed in the early hours is really causing problems with his morning feed. Last night he fed at 4 (insisted on full 7oz) the barley touched his 7am bottle and wasn't really interested in feeding again until 12!! I'm worried that if he continues not eating properly during the day that he will be more prone to waking at night for food at night etc etc.....