Early wakings & night feeds

[ENMS]

I am tired and fed up  

DS is almost 5 months old.  He still feeds at night 1-2 times.  He also has EW, regardless of his EASY the day before, and regardless of the timing of his NF.

I can take the NF no problem - he goes right back to sleep after. But, I'm not sure he really needs them, yk? There are some days that he does STTN, no problem.  I limit his NF bottles to 4 oz unless I have reason to believe that he will be really hungry (if he did not feed well the previous day) because otherwise I can't get him to feed properly in the AM.

And the EW... is so hard because even though most times he goes back to sleep, I don't. What I do is I feed him so then he usually goes back to sleep. I know I shouldn't do that   but I can't help it I'm so tired.  So I probably put myself in this misery   not please help me fix it? For an NW or EW, if I feed him he just goes back nicely after. He doesn't fall asleep while feeding though - ever.

One thing I realise is that the E is completely messed up.  I top him up most days before his naps because the E would be due during naptime and Idon't want that to cut his nap short.

Here are the last couple of days:

Monday

E 3:00 4 oz
WU 6:00
E 6:00 4 oz
E 7:15 1 tablespoon of rice cereal
E 8:00 2 oz topped him up before nap
S 8:15-9:40
E 10:15 6 oz
S 10:45-11:15 (he just fell asleep in the stroller, weird)
E 12:00 4oz (top up before nap)
S 12:40-1:35, resettle, back to sleep at 1:40-3:40
E 4:00 7.5 oz
S 5:00-5:15 (stroller)
E 5:45 (1/2 tablespoon of rice cereal)
E 7:15 7

Tuesday

E 0:45 4 oz
E 5:20 4 oz
WU 6:30
E 8:00 4 oz
S 8:50-9:25
E 10:00 1 tablespoon cereal
E 11:00 3.5 oz
S 11:24-12:50
E 1:20 8 0z
S 2:50-3:20
E 4:15 7oz
S 4:20-5:00
E 5:30 1 tablespoon cereal
E 6:30 3
S 6:45

Wednesday

E 5:10 (STTN - yay!)
WU 6:35
E 7:45 6.5 oz
S 8:21-9:35
E 10:15 1/2 tablespoon cereal
E 11:15 7
S 11:40-12:15
S 1:30-2:20
E 2:50 7 oz
S 4:20-5:00
E 5:45 1.5 tablespoon cereal
E 6:30 8 oz
S 7:00

So if you see what I see... he gets way too much snacking during the day but I think it's because he's not hungry enough in the AM because of the NF - kwim? On Wed, he had STTN and had great feeds all day.  The EW feed on Wed did not screw up the whole day and I could totally live with waking up at 5 for a feed if he needs it and if it doesn't screw up the whole day. Last night he fed at 11:45 (6 oz) then woke at 3 I fed him but he took 2 oz (shouldn't have since it was less than 4h) and then woke again at 5:15 - we resettled him using white noise.

I usually get him to nap 2 x 1h30 but this week is a bit off, DD is home from daycare all week so his routine is a bit different and he doesn't get as good a winddown with her around.

WWYD for the NF? I really see them as messing up the whole day... but I'm scared to cut him off, then what do I do on the days he really needs a feed? He's still young, but he's really a big boy (close to 18 pounds now).

Now today he's pretty much refusing the bottle - he took 5 oz at 7:30, had one tablespoon of cereal at 9:15, and I just offered a bottle (12:30) and he took 1 oz, he wants nothing to do with it.  I'm sure though tonight he'll want to feed - what do I do? I can't encourage this...

TIA

[katie80]

Hi Elise, I really have no experience with FF, so I'll try to get some better eyes on this for you. I do think you're right on with your assessment of snacking too much during the day and that probably does relate to not starting the day with a decent feed. The cycle then just perpetuates itself.

The one thing I did notice, routine-wise, in what you've told us is that DS often sleeps 2 x 1.5 hr naps. At his age and A times, I'm thinking that's most likely not enough to get through the day without ending somewhat OT, which is likely contributing to the NW and EW. Are you able to get a CN out of him still?

[*Kara*]

Hi Elise -

I worry about OT issues as well as I see a few 30 min OT naps in there.. he should be sleeping a touch more during the day and his A time should be around the 2 hr mark.

Also, the cereal at dinner time.. I would stop it personally.  Cereal is very hard to digest and it could be contributing to his NWing.  At this age, his formula has far more in terms of fats/calories etc to keep him feeling full.  If you think he really is wanting the solids, i would opt for something like pears... nice and gentle on the tum.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to drop all night feeds yet, but I do wonder if you would have better luck if you offered a full feed (instead of a half feed) at his first waking.  I understand your thinking with giving a half feed but he is just waking a few hours later as he is hungry again... maybe try an 8 oz bottle when he wakes around midnight/1am and see if he gets through the night that way.

[ENMS]

I worry about OT issues as well as I see a few 30 min OT naps in there.. he should be sleeping a touch more during the day and his A time should be around the 2 hr mark.

The OT naps are new this week didn't have them in the last few weeks, I think the problem is that DD was home from daycare all week (daycare lady was sick) so I couldn't always get him as quickly to sleep as I'd wanted him to be and he is touchy in terms of A times, also there's probably a bit of OS at play too, he's used to being just with me, and now DD is there and wants to play with him. He's taking longer to fall asleep so that also affects the length of the A time (I put him down based on cues, not the clock). He also started showing tired cues a bit later, so I went with it, he used to be at 2h all the time but now sometimes it's 2h10, 2h15 (usually 2h20 gives us an OT nap).  But the NW and EW occurred even before I got these OT naps this week, no change really.  I think I'll post on the naps board also, because I really do think he needs longer naps, like 2h or so, but I don't know how to get him there, he just will not do it, yk? We do get a catnap pretty much every day, and I make sure it's 2h between the CN and BT.

We tried pears and it did not go well. He is MSPI and has reflux so we're going very cautiously with solid food introduction. I will try moving his 2nd solid meal but I just put it there because it was easier in terms of routine with DD since I wanted his two meals to be spaced out a little and not too close together (and to not be too close to a bottle feed ideally).

What I've been doing since the middle of this week is to offer a full bottle if he wakes before 2 AM, and offer a half feed if he wakes after 2 AM, in order to not mess up with his morning feed. Now since the middle of this week we have some issues with feeding during the day, thought it was a reflux flare up but on second look I don't think it is, could be teething although I don't see anything when I look at his gums

Here is how yesterday went (a horrible day!)

W 5:15 - put white noise on louder, went back to asleep
W 6:00
E 7:30 5 oz
S 8:17-8:52 (it took him a good 20 mins to fall asleep, unusual, hence he was OT)
E 9:15 1 tablespoon cereal
S 10:38-11:10, resettled and slept until 12:10
E 12:15 2.5 oz
S 2:20-2:50
E 3:45 4 oz
S 4:00-4:45
E 5:30 1 tablespoon cereal
E 6:30 6 oz
S 6:45

He woke at 10:30, took in 6 oz, then at 4, took in 4 oz, chatted on and off until 5, seemed to fall asleep then, woke at 5:50 to start the day

DH and I are both really tired, he's 5 months so although I agree it's totally normal to keep up a NF, I don't know how to make it so that we get NF but no EW... I feel like he does need a lot of sleep and I want him to get that, I just don't know how... FWIW I also think the NF are screwing up his day feeds. On the days when he has STTN, he takes good, full feeds all day, and on days when he had a NF, he doesn't.  But I'm not ready to go full cold turkey on him about it though, but as much as I try to get him to take good day feeds so that he's full, i'M not having much success.

[katie80]

What about a DF? Have you ever tried that? If you could get him to take a full DF, then maybe gradually reduce the amount in the NF, he might start sleeping through.

I don't know that he needs to take 2 hr long naps, neither of mine really have. 1.5 hr is a full, restorative nap, but I do think he needs that CN still.

Also, I agree with Kara re: the solids. Is there a reason you're starting now? He really doesn't need to start until 6 mo and if you're having daytime feeding issues, I'd probably hold off and concentrate on the formula first.

Finally, I don't know that the EW has anything to do with the NFs really. Have you tried to go in and resettle him, then? My DS resettled easily with just some shh/pat at that time of day until he was about 7 mo old. Maybe he just needs to learn to keep sleeping in that lighter phase.

(((Hugs))) hon, I know it's no fun to feel tired all the time.

[ENMS]

What about a DF? Have you ever tried that?

We have never tried a DF... do you think at 5 months it is something worth getting into? I don't mind trying it but since he STTN sometimes, I'm not sure 

For the solids, I'm thinking of stopping and seeing if things improve. They were bad before so I don't think it has that much to do with it, but who knows really, maybe his tummy is hurting 

Yes we can resettle him usually if it's 5:45 or earlier, but I really wish he would learn to sleep through. So you don't think it's a routine issue then?

Thanks a lot!

[becj86]

Hi Elise, I'll lock this thread so you can keep all the advice in one spot.

Please visit Elise's thread on http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=13.0 board if you'd like to keep helping out. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=230134.0